Low-tech tank - Can I do it?

[TimNorwich]

I've been looking online at liquid fertilisers. Probably a long shot but is there a product that does *most* of what I need it to do? I'm not really interested in adding multiple bottles of things to my tank each/every other day. If there is just one product out there to cover multiple bases that would be great?

 

[Essjay]

Yes, Seachem Flourish, comprehensive supplement for the planted aquarium. Not to be confused with any other Seachem Flourish product. The comprehensive supplement one contains almost all the nutrients needed by plants. As I have mainly slow growing plants - the only fast grower is water sprite - I use this once a week at half dose.

 

[TimNorwich]

Yes, Seachem Flourish, comprehensive supplement for the planted aquarium. Not to be confused with any other Seachem Flourish product. The comprehensive supplement one contains almost all the nutrients needed by plants. As I have mainly slow growing plants - the only fast grower is water sprite - I use this once a week at half dose.

Ah perfect! I'll get some ordered then. Guessing it lasts forever at such low dosages?

 

[Essjay]

Yes, it does. I usually put some in other bottles and freeze them so there's only a small amount open at any one time, and keep the current bottle in the fridge. I find a 1 ml pipette useful for measuring the dose.

 

[Byron]

I concur with essjay and will expand a bit to explain.

Aquatic plants require 17 nutrients, but it goes beyond just providing them. Some of the nutrients must be in certain proportions to each other. I won't go into all the detail as it gets complex. High-tech systems are very different; here you have very intense lighting and this has to be balanced with more nutrients, so such systems frequently have daily dosing of macro and micro nutrients, far more than the plants need; but each week a major water change removes the excess, and then you start over. This can work for plants, but if fish are present this is a problem, as this is detrimental to fish. Which is why so many of these high-tech aquatic gardens have no fish. It is a different approach.

With fish in the tank you need to be careful because every substance added to the water will get inside the fish. Leaving that and turning solely to the plants, you want the nutrients available but not in excess. Plants can shut down assimilation of some nutrients if there is an excess of some other nutrient. Some nutrients can be stored in the plant, though this depends upon the plant species (some do not do this) and the nutrient.

Dosing ad hoc this and that in a natural or low-tech method planted tank is inevitably going to cause problems for the plants and the fish. Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium has 14 of the necessary 17 nutrients but they are in proportion according to the requirements of the plants. The macros are minimal because these tend to come naturally from water changes and fish food. And as the name implies, this is a supplement to already-available nutrients. The three absent nutrients are going to be present in any aquarium naturally; oxygen, hydrogen and carbon. The latter is taken up by plants in the form of CO2, and the breakdown of organics in the substrate is the prime source of CO2, more than the respiration of fish, plants and bacteria.

Using a comprehensive supplement ensures all necessary nutrients are available. This does need to be tailored to the plants however, to avoid excess/deficiency. Algae can take advantage of these, so if the aquarium is balanced and algae is not a problem, chances are the nutrients for the plants are sufficient and adequate. "Algae" means problem algae that can take over everything, rather than common algae which is part of every healthy aquarium.

 

[TimNorwich]

I concur with essjay and will expand a bit to explain.

Aquatic plants require 17 nutrients, but it goes beyond just providing them. Some of the nutrients must be in certain proportions to each other. I won't go into all the detail as it gets complex. High-tech systems are very different; here you have very intense lighting and this has to be balanced with more nutrients, so such systems frequently have daily dosing of macro and micro nutrients, far more than the plants need; but each week a major water change removes the excess, and then you start over. This can work for plants, but if fish are present this is a problem, as this is detrimental to fish. Which is why so many of these high-tech aquatic gardens have no fish. It is a different approach.

With fish in the tank you need to be careful because every substance added to the water will get inside the fish. Leaving that and turning solely to the plants, you want the nutrients available but not in excess. Plants can shut down assimilation of some nutrients if there is an excess of some other nutrient. Some nutrients can be stored in the plant, though this depends upon the plant species (some do not do this) and the nutrient.

Dosing ad hoc this and that in a natural or low-tech method planted tank is inevitably going to cause problems for the plants and the fish. Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium has 14 of the necessary 17 nutrients but they are in proportion according to the requirements of the plants. The macros are minimal because these tend to come naturally from water changes and fish food. And as the name implies, this is a supplement to already-available nutrients. The three absent nutrients are going to be present in any aquarium naturally; oxygen, hydrogen and carbon. The latter is taken up by plants in the form of CO2, and the breakdown of organics in the substrate is the prime source of CO2, more than the respiration of fish, plants and bacteria.

Using a comprehensive supplement ensures all necessary nutrients are available. This does need to be tailored to the plants however, to avoid excess/deficiency. Algae can take advantage of these, so if the aquarium is balanced and algae is not a problem, chances are the nutrients for the plants are sufficient and adequate. "Algae" means problem algae that can take over everything, rather than common algae which is part of every healthy aquarium.

Thank you for taking the time to make a detailed response, you make some really good points. I'll keep you posted on how I get on! Thanks

 

[Ingrid]

Canadien pondweed is very hardy and won't need a co2 machine thingy

 

[Colin_T]

Canadien pondweed is very hardy and won't need a co2 machine thingy

LOL, love the technical lingo

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

I have a tank with full spectrum LED lights and two with regular fluorescent - obviously the full-spectrum ones do best but I've have no trouble growing plants in any of them.

I've NEVER found an honest local dealer - I'm sure there are some. But their plants tend to be full of snail eggs. so do most of them from Amazon and Ebay so I buy mine here:

https://www.azgardens.com/

They actually started in business first selling aquatic plants and added fish later. Their plants aren't that expensive but shipping will run you about $18 for 2 day. They are expert shippers. They are rotten communicators but have a great selection.

Also look at algae eating fish (that won't eat the plants). I just purchased 2 Bushnosed Pleco (lemon yellow) and while expensive they do an amazing job. In fact, I'm worried because I'm out of algae for them to eat and as far as I can tell. that is ALL they eat. I'm waiting for some Chinese algae eaters (much cheaper) and hope they do well. Plants get really covered in algae and can die. You can often wipe it off with a paper towel but that gets pretty tedious.

 

[TimNorwich]

So I've added a number of plants to my aquarium. I've got 10x Vallisneria Spiralis, 2x Amazon Sword, 10x Sagittaria subulata, some Lucens Crypts, Lutea Crypts dotted around and lastly the water lily.

I've been adding Seachem Flourish Complete as advised, and I've just ordered 50x root tabs to add as well.

Some stuff is going brown, hopefully it's just older bits dying off from transit and new growth will appear soon.

 

[TimNorwich]

Todays update:

I've bought some root tabs to add to the substrate.

I currently have a fair amount of algae appearing (you can see it on the stones in the picture on my last post) could this be due to the Seachem Flourish I've been adding?

Lastly, how long should I have the aquarium lights on each day?

 

[Byron]

Todays update:

I've bought some root tabs to add to the substrate.

I currently have a fair amount of algae appearing (you can see it on the stones in the picture on my last post) could this be due to the Seachem Flourish I've been adding?

Lastly, how long should I have the aquarium lights on each day?

Algae in an aquarium is normal and to be expected. With live plants, we need to control the "problem" algae. The photo is not all that close but from what I see on the stones it is normal and not a problem.

Excess nutrients such as liquid plant additives (the substrate tabs, at least the Flourish Tabs, do not do this) can cause problem algae, but so can excess light, or the opposite--insufficient light and/or insufficient nutrients for the plants. This brings me to your question on light.

In a planted tank we need to find the balance of light/nutrients to provide what the specific plants require in both, but not beyond this so algae will be disadvantaged. The light intensity is critical, as it drives photosynthesis. Assuming this is OK here, thee duration then factors in. Plants are not really fussy about how long or short the light (daylight to the plants) is, but the period must bee sufficient and continuous. Six hours is the recommended minimum; beyond this, it depends upon your needs (in viewing the aquarium) and the balance so algae is not given the advantage. Excess light (too bright, or too long) is the usual cause of problem algae, more than the nutrient imbalance, as you can always reduce the lighting period to restore the balance.

The main thing is that the "daylight" period which is when the tank light is on must be one continuous span during each 24 hours. This is even more important for the fish than the plants. This "daylight" can be any time you want, when you are normally home to enjoy the aquarium. There must also be a continuous period of total darkness--no ambient room light, no daylight through windows-- during each 24 hour period. This should be six or more hours. The "in between" periods don't really matter, though algae can sometimes make use of even this minimal light.

As an example, my tank lights are on from 9:30 am to 5:30 pm each day, on a timer. The room has a window with a blind so there is ambient light (but not strong) during the day and especially when the tank lighting comes on and goes off. This 8-hour "day" is the longest I can have or black brush algae appears, so it is obviously the "balance" in my situation. The light intensity, the plant load, and the fertilizers factor in, so what works for one may not be the best for another. It took me a few years to get down to this 8 hours, using algae as the guide.

 

[TimNorwich]

The room my fish tank in gets an awful lot of daylight and algae has been a problem in the past even before I planted it, purely from the windows.
I had the timer set from 1pm-10pm which I now realise may have been a bit excessive. I've now changed it to come on at 4pm-10pm to see how that works.
I've attached a couple of pictures to show the algae, it's growing on the plants as well. The vallis doesn't seem to be doing too great either, lots of browning and lengths falling off. Although it looks like there are some shoots/runners starting to appear!?

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

I've bought some root tabs to add to the substrate.

So you're using flourish and "root tabs" - are those the same thing as Flourish tabs that you stick in the substrate? There isn't any reason to use both.. I mean this is no different to raising regular plants outside of an aquarium - the two biggest killers are too much water (which you don't have to worry about) and too much fertilizer - which if you're using both flourish the liquid and tablet fertilizer then you are possibly adding too much fertilizer. My flourish tabs are still desolving in my "Tank A" so I don't add anything. Plants are growing OUT OF CONTROL - it just looks like a mess and leaves floating through the water and stuck to the sides -yuck. Tank B and C - I added a little flourish to the water when I first got them several months ago (except a couple of new ones). Maybe they aren't growing quite as fast - I have about 30 different species and only 2 are "fast growing" - which also means a big mess. As far as I'm concerned the last thing these plants need is fertilizer - and if I see brown I figure the leaf is either damaged or "burned" by fertilizer - so I just cut it off.

Obviously MANY species of fish relish in the cover provided by plants. My daughter just texted me telling me the overgrown wisteria that I gave her is a big hit with her new fish - he hides in it. She usually has guppies so I assume this is a betta. and that he also loves the friend (snail) the wisteria brought with it. I had one tank nearly snail free until I bought two new plants again - now 2 days later I'm well back over 100 - most too small to pick up. These appear to be common pond snails which do eat leftover food, and dead fish - they will also eat your plants but they like the dying parts of the plant best.

 

[Byron]

Also look at algae eating fish (that won't eat the plants). I just purchased 2 Bushnosed Pleco (lemon yellow) and while expensive they do an amazing job. In fact, I'm worried because I'm out of algae for them to eat and as far as I can tell. that is ALL they eat. I'm waiting for some Chinese algae eaters (much cheaper) and hope they do well. Plants get really covered in algae and can die. You can often wipe it off with a paper towel but that gets pretty tedious.

I just noticed this, sorry I didn't see it sooner to respond, but better late than never.

Chinese Algae Eater...You really do not want to be acquiring Chinese Algae Eater fish. First, they do not eat algae as they mature, second they get six inches, third they usually become very nasty. They have been frequently observed eating the slime off any other fish, and they can be very territorial.

The Bristle nose will be OK, though two males may squabble as they are territorial. But as for algae, they are specific feeders. They will not touch "problem" algae like black brush/beard (none of these so-called algae eating fish will, except one which also gets very large and needs a shoal). They will devour common green algae on biofilms, and they are good with diatoms. They should be fed algae-based sinking wafers or they may not obtain adequate nutrition. Omega One Veggie Rounds is about the best one as it has no additives or binders/fillers.

In general, fish should not be acquired solely to handle algae as those that might eat "algae" will only eat specific species and thus often fail in their intended mission.