Lost 2 Guppies Yeterday 1 Today And 2...

[cl3537]

I am really disappointed. I lost two male guppies yesterday and 1 today.
 
My first 3 male guppies from the pet store still look great their Caudaul and Dorsal's are spread apart, colors are vibrant and they show no signs of stress or disease. However I bought 8 fish (5 males 3 females) from a local breeder in West Island, lost two yesterday and one today. The two that died yesterday really didn't eat a lot and seemed to constantly stay near the top of the tank(for the two weeks I have had them) so I am not surprised.
But the red one that died today was really surprising and disappointing as he acted pretty normal as show in the picture from 4 days ago.
 

 
On top of that two more of the fish from the breeder are doing the shimmy (largest female and the remaning red male) and staying mostly at the top.
There is also a half black that has its caudaul looks stuck together and it isn't going to the bottom of the tank much anymore.
2 or 3 of the fish have clamped dorsal fins closer to their body than they were.
 
I feared some sort of unknown water quality issue due to malm, or a dead fish(removed within 12 hours  of death), yesterday I did a 25% water change , today a 35% and I see a slight improvement in the activity of the fish but still 3 of the fish are uncharacteristically staying at the top. Both times I vaccumed up as much malm as I could from the bottom especially where the fish that died were found hiding or died.
 
I am stumped, Ammonia and Nitrite has been tested daily and are always 0 and then tank has been cycled for 2 months. Nitrates are about 5 - 10.
 
Water temperature has remained stable at 25.3 Celsius and when I do water change I make sure the temperature is the same and add dechlorinator.
 
The breeder was adamant his tanks are free from disease and the fish looked healthy in his and my tank except for the last 2 days.
 
Possible issues:
 
1) West island water is softer and more acidic whereas I have PH 8.0 montreal medium hardness water.
 
2) I know the ratio of males to females is is off and I should have a lot more females but its the males dieing not the females and the males chased the females for a day or two but don't do it as often anymore  so I don't think its that.
 

 

 
My sense of urgency is I really don't want to lose the 3 out of 8 that are not acting normal right now and have the compressed dorsal fins and are swimming at the top.
 
I don't see any gasping and 5 of the fish(2 females from the breeder and my original 3 fish are acting normal eating well, bright colors and going to the bottom to feed and explore.)

 

[nic1]

One suggestion is that as your tank has only been cycled for a couple of months, the increase of the fishes bio load is to much for the good bacteria to handle.
Introduction of fish in a newly set up aquarium should be gradual and over a matter of months. In my opinion a tank isn't fully cycled properly for at least 6 months. As the filter can only handle its last current stock... Anything else added will be extra work for it...
Water changes here are a must, 40-50% every other day.
Shame this happened as they look beautiful.

Also did you acclimatise them properly? And how did you do it? Your suggestion about different water parameters is quite right, that's why I'm asking.

 

[cl3537]

One suggestion is that as your tank has only been cycled for a couple of months, the increase of the fishes bio load is to much for the good bacteria to handle.
Introduction of fish in a newly set up aquarium should be gradual and over a matter of months. In my opinion a tank isn't fully cycled properly for at least 6 months. As the filter can only handle its last current stock... Anything else added will be extra work for it...
Water changes here are a must, 40-50% every other day.
Shame this happened as they look beautiful.

Also did you acclimatise them properly? And how did you do it? Your suggestion about different water parameters is quite right, that's why I'm asking.

 
I started with a fishless cycle and built up enough Bacteria to process 1.5 - 2ppm in 16 hours showing no Ammonia or Nitrite after that time period. This amount was tested and retested over a couple of days and then maintained with small doses of Ammonia(0.5ppm and 0.75ppm) every 3 days for a week before any fish were added.
 
I added 3 Guppies from a LFS from one of their show tanks I had them for 2 weeks.
 
After that 9 Days ago I added the 9 fish from the Breeder.
 
Ammonia(0), Temperature(25.3C, PH(8), Nitrites(0) and Nitrates(5-10 but API liquid kit is not very accurate in this range) have been all stable and I tested daily. I do not do 40 - 50% water changes as I read this can be stressful to fish and too shocking. I have been doing  weekly or biweekly 20% changes.
 
The local members of the fish club I belong to suspect that that there may be pathogens introduced by the LFS store fish that they are immune to that the breeder's fish which are highly inbred may be susceptible to.
 
It is not simply an uncycled tank I heavily discount that possibility as the API tests for Ammonia would be showing something and I don't feed excessively either.

 

[attibones]

It is not that your tank isn't cycled, but that you more than doubled the amount of bioload. Your filter (even if cycled for up to 4ppm of ammonia) will eventually only have enough bacteria for your present amount of fish. This is because excess bacteria die of because they aren't receiving food. So when you add more fish, you go through a mini-cycle. However, I do not believe this to be the case if you tested for ammonia and nitrite daily after adding the new fish. You would have seen some ammonia.

How did you add the fish? Did you just let them float for ten minutes? Did you drip acclimate them? What did you do and how long did you do it beffort you introduced the fish?

 

[Byron]

I'm going to pick up on the water change misconception, but before that I would suggest that the acclimatization may have been the issue here, as nci1 was getting at.  You (Jordan) mentioned in post #1 about West Island water (presumably this is the breeder's water) being softer and more acidic than your moderately hard, pH 8 water.  Moving fish from one extreme to the other--and depending upon the actual numbers for the GH--almost always causes shock.  Many worry about pH shock, but the actual "shock" in water parameter differences is the GH/TDS much more than pH.  I don't know how the fish were acclimated, but I do know that the symptoms described would suggest a significant difference in parameters that can usually damage fish permanently.
 
Moving on to the water changes.  The more water that is changed and the more often, the more stable will be the aquarium, and this is certainly less stressful on the fish inhabitants.  Stressing fish with a water change where we mean solely by our banging around inside the tank is a low level of stress for a brief period.  Fluctuating water conditions (involving parameters, biological issues) is much more stressful long-term.  Provided your tap water parameters (GH primarily, along with pH) are reasonably close to the aquarium, a 50% plus water change every week will go much farther to maintain a stable biological system for the fish.  The pH is normally of less significance because once an aquarium has an established biological system, it serves to "buffer" pH during water changes, even with a zero KH (carbonate hardness).  In my own tanks for example, some of which run at pH 5 or lower, I do a 50% water change with tap water at pH 7.0 or 7.1 and the tank pH immediately following the change only rises by a couple of decimal points at most.
 
Water changes remove TDS (total dissolved solids) and other substances that cannot be removed by any other method.  Many discus breeders change 90% of the tank water in fry tanks every day.  Fry are normally more susceptible to water issues, but clearly not here.  My advice would be to go on a schedule of weekly water changes (changes should absolutely never be less often than once a week) and with 1/3 to 1/2 the tank volume per change.
 
Byron.
 
Edit: I see attibones has also caught the acclimatization, posted while I was typing.

 

[cl3537]

It is not that your tank isn't cycled, but that you more than doubled the amount of bioload. Your filter (even if cycled for up to 4ppm of ammonia) will eventually only have enough bacteria for your present amount of fish. This is because excess bacteria die of because they aren't receiving food. So when you add more fish, you go through a mini-cycle. However, I do not believe this to be the case if you tested for ammonia and nitrite daily after adding the new fish. You would have seen some ammonia.
 
Yes and I didn't, in addition, a mini cycle would likely affect all fish not just some of the new ones.
How did you add the fish? Did you just let them float for ten minutes? Did you drip acclimate them? What did you do and how long did you do it beffort you introduced the fish?
 
They were floated in their separate bags for 30 - 40 minutes, temperature inside and outside the bag were equal. After this time I put 4 shots of tank water into the bag spread apart by about 10 - 15 minutes at a time so the total water in the bag was doubled or tripled.  After a 5 - 10 minute delay they were then netted and placed in the tank.

 
Would it be common for fish to act normal for 7 days and then all of a sudden show acclimation shock 8 or 9 days later?
I really noticed only 1 fish acting strange from the beginning, and it wasn't the first fish that died.

 

[Byron]

Would it be common for fish to act normal for 7 days and then all of a sudden show acclimation shock 8 or 9 days later?
I really noticed only 1 fish acting strange from the beginning, and it wasn't the first fish that died.
 

 
Yes, this is possible.  Some fish will succumb more quickly to issues than others.  Now, it could also be something else.  Internal injury from when it was netted is another maybe.  I'm still leaning to the difference in parameters though.  The internal physiology of a fish can be harmed by all of these things, and it can manifest sooner or later.  This is why we so often hear things like, "my fish were fine, then they suddenly died;" it is simply the result of something earlier.
 
Byron.

 

[cl3537]

I'm going to pick up on the water change misconception, but before that I would suggest that the acclimatization may have been the issue here, as nci1 was getting at.  You (Jordan) mentioned in post #1 about West Island water (presumably this is the breeder's water) being softer and more acidic than your moderately hard, pH 8 water.  Moving fish from one extreme to the other--and depending upon the actual numbers for the GH--almost always causes shock.  Many worry about pH shock, but the actual "shock" in water parameter differences is the GH/TDS much more than pH.  I don't know how the fish were acclimated, but I do know that the symptoms described would suggest a significant difference in parameters that can usually damage fish permanently.
 
Well I think West Island water is ~6.9 mine is ~8.0. But I will have to check what the breeder does to his water I am pretty sure he processes his water and may adds salts.
However from what I have been advised from the breeder and elsewhere going from lower TDS and pH to higher(within reason) especially in the case of guppies should not normally cause such a problem. I haven't seen solid evidence confirming this though.
 
Moving on to the water changes.  The more water that is changed and the more often, the more stable will be the aquarium, and this is certainly less stressful on the fish inhabitants.  Stressing fish with a water change where we mean solely by our banging around inside the tank is a low level of stress for a brief period.  Fluctuating water conditions (involving parameters, biological issues) is much more stressful long-term.  Provided your tap water parameters (GH primarily, along with pH) are reasonably close to the aquarium, a 50% plus water change every week will go much farther to maintain a stable biological system for the fish.  The pH is normally of less significance because once an aquarium has an established biological system, it serves to "buffer" pH during water changes, even with a zero KH (carbonate hardness).  In my own tanks for example, some of which run at pH 5 or lower, I do a 50% water change with tap water at pH 7.0 or 7.1 and the tank pH immediately following the change only rises by a couple of decimal points at most.
 
Well the pH of my tank before and after water changes is the same at 8.0(AP kit). 
I have done two water changes one 20 - 25 yesterday and one 35-40% today. Are you suggesting I do 50% water changes more often or just do one 50%+ once a week?
I don't have a gH or kH test kit but I am going to get a digital TDS meter to monitor total hardness for another purpose, I can use it on my tank as well.
 
I have been given some vague advice about psychological stress on fish and was advised not to do large changes or frequent changes but I really don't know how substantiated this advice is. However "psychological" stress may be just a catch all because this LFS owner and breeder wasn't able to find the cause for many fish deaths.
 
Water changes remove TDS (total dissolved solids) and other substances that cannot be removed by any other method.  Many discus breeders change 90% of the tank water in fry tanks every day.  Fry are normally more susceptible to water issues, but clearly not here.  My advice would be to go on a schedule of weekly water changes (changes should absolutely never be less often than once a week) and with 1/3 to 1/2 the tank volume per change.
 
Byron.
 
Edit: I see attibones has also caught the acclimatization, posted while I was typing.

 
I'll definitely be asking some questions to the breeder I suspect he has made many sales over the years to Montreal customers(stores and individuals) so my experience is likely uncommon for him.

 

[cl3537]

I think I know what the culprit is. This morning I noticed this long stringy thing attached to the largest female and she looks noticeably worse. Doesn't this indicate internal parasites?

 

[Byron]

Yes, that is not normal.  I have no experience in this area so I will not guess.  Hopefully someone who does will come along.  Blanched peas with the outer husk removed (feed just the inside soft matter) may help, and certainly won't hurt, until you have something more definite.
 

Well the pH of my tank before and after water changes is the same at 8.0(AP kit). 
I have done two water changes one 20 - 25 yesterday and one 35-40% today. Are you suggesting I do 50% water changes more often or just do one 50%+ once a week?
I don't have a gH or kH test kit but I am going to get a digital TDS meter to monitor total hardness for another purpose, I can use it on my tank as well.
 
I have been given some vague advice about psychological stress on fish and was advised not to do large changes or frequent changes but I really don't know how substantiated this advice is. However "psychological" stress may be just a catch all because this LFS owner and breeder wasn't able to find the cause for many fish deaths.
 

 
A water change of about half the tank volume once a week is normally sufficient.
 
Anyone (like that LFS person) who argues against regular water changes is not understanding the issue.  The evidence for substantial water changes speaks for itself.  As I mentioned previously, the temporary stress caused by the aquarist working inside the tank is minimal compared to the significant stress caused long-term by less than quality water conditions.  Provided the parameters are close, as yours appear to be, you cannot do more harm than good.
 
Byron.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

In this hobby the phrase "everything is relative" is super applicable. Yes water changes can cause stress. One way to know this is how the fish react to them. If the fish are bolting in fear and then cowering in hiding, they are being stressed. And stress will lower the natural defenses of a fish. There is a difference between doing massive water changes one or two times a day to handle a low level of ammonia which should vanish rapidly vs higher levels that are persistent. The key would be in the amount of the ammonia in the form of NH3 (this is the really toxic form).
 
One tank with a lower pH and temp can have a 1 ppm total ammonia reading and this will be less of a danger than a tank with a total ammonia level of .5 but a higher temp. and pH. So, in one case you would do nothing since the ammonia is not a serious threat and is likely to be gone in short order but in the other it is an immediate threat. If one is cycling a tank, it is often the case that the ammonia is not a threat at a given level and it should be gone fairly soon. Here doing repeated water changes will create more stress than the ammonia. But in the second case, the stress water changes might cause is far outweighed by the harm the ammonia will cause - including stress. Its all relative.
 
Similarly, new fish in a new tank are more likely to be scared by maintenance in the tank than fish who have lived in the tank for months and have becomes used to weekly water changes and cleaning. I have had discus which hid in panic initially when I did anything in their tank and over time this changed. Suddenly, I found myself having to push then out of my way to reach spots as they had lost most of their fear. So, as noted above, its all relative.
 
One note on the true acclimation of of fish. No matter what you read or are told in most stores and on most sites, acclimation is not something that can be done in a matter of hours or days. Studies show it can take a week or two before the biochemistry inside a fish changes. I realize the following is a bit technical, but the key points in it I have highlighted by changing the test color blue.
 

Gill membrane remodeling with soft-water acclimation in zebrafish (Danio rerio) Abstract
Little is known regarding the ionoregulatory abilities of zebrafish exposed to soft water despite the popularity of this model organism for physiology and aquatic toxicology. We examined genomic and nongenomic changes to gills of zebrafish as they were progressively acclimated from moderately hard freshwater to typical soft water over 7 days and held in soft water for another 7 days. Gills were sampled daily and mRNA expression levels of gill Na+-K+-ATPase (NKA) α1a subunit, epithelium calcium channel (ECaC), carbonic anhydrase-1 and 2 (CA-1, CA-2), Na+/H+ exchanger (NHE-2), V-type proton (H+)-ATPase, and copper transport protein (CTR-1) were quantified by real-time PCR. Changes in enzyme activities of gill NKA were determined and protein levels of NKA and ECaC were quantified by Western blotting. Levels of mRNA for ECaC increased fourfold after day 6, with an associated increase in ECaC protein levels after 1 wk in soft water. CA-1 and CA-2 exhibited a 1.5- and 6-fold increase in gene expression on days 6 and 5, respectively. Likewise, there was a fivefold increase in NHE-2 expression after day 6. Surprisingly, CTR-1 mRNA showed a large transient increase (over threefold) on day 6, while H+-ATPase mRNA did not change. These data demonstrate a high degree of phenotypic plasticity in zebrafish gills exposed to an ion-poor environment. This not only enhances our understanding of ionoregulatory processes in fish but also highlights the need for proper experimental design for studies involving preacclimation to soft water (e.g., metal toxicity).

from http/physiolgenomics.physiology.org/content/30/1/53.full#BIBL
 
I have reviewed other studies in which the time for changes in the internal biochemistry of the fish took two weeks to manifest. So the next time people tell you they are acclimating fish in a matter of hours, try to be polite in your response. Do not laugh out loud. I would note that there is a difference between fresh and salt water fish in terms of the need to acclimate on arrival. I am mostly familiar with the freshwater ones as I have never kept a sw or brackish tank. What I can tell you is I have treated discus in a 10 gal tank which had a full two cups of salt added to it and I was prepared to increase this to 3 cups if the med ordered had not arrived when it did. (The salt was removed and before the med went in, as it also contained salt.) This amount of salt was added on the advice of a discus expert I consulted as I never would have imagined so much salt would have been a help let alone safe. The fish both recovered. So as I noted, when it comes to fish, everything is relative and there are rarely any hard and fast rules that we can apply to all the different fish we may keep and the various situations with which we may have to deal.
 
All that said, your fish appear to have digestive issues which may or may not be caused by parasites or worms. That poop is not normal. If it is simple constipation, then Byron's suggestion should help as long as the fish are eating. My normal assumption is good breeders do not distribute fish which are not in good health. But how one knows they are dealing with a good person or a careless one is often hard to know without input from other sources. If your fish have serious health related issues, they will likely need meds to clear it up. Internal issues are not always parasites/worms, they can also be bacterial. So determining the best treatment may not be so easy. My tendency with uncertainty is to start with the milder solutions first and if they are not helping I will change to stronger medicine. Generally, meds for internal parasites etc. are not too nasty, however, other meds can have more consequences in terms of unwanted side effects in a tank.
 
Also, from looking at that picture another possibility occurs to me in terms of fms, they can get fry bound which will plug them up and can cause fatal complications.

 

[cl3537]

In this hobby the phrase "everything is relative" is super applicable. Yes water changes can cause stress. One way to know this is how the fish react to them. If the fish are bolting in fear and then cowering in hiding, they are being stressed. And stress will lower the natural defenses of a fish. There is a difference between doing massive water changes one or two times a day to handle a low level of ammonia which should vanish rapidly vs higher levels that are persistent. The key would be in the amount of the ammonia in the form of NH3 (this is the really toxic form).
 
One tank with a lower pH and temp can have a 1 ppm total ammonia reading and this will be less of a danger than a tank with a total ammonia level of .5 but a higher temp. and pH. So, in one case you would do nothing since the ammonia is not a serious threat and is likely to be gone in short order but in the other it is an immediate threat. If one is cycling a tank, it is often the case that the ammonia is not a threat at a given level and it should be gone fairly soon. Here doing repeated water changes will create more stress than the ammonia. But in the second case, the stress water changes might cause is far outweighed by the harm the ammonia will cause - including stress. Its all relative.
 
Similarly, new fish in a new tank are more likely to be scared by maintenance in the tank than fish who have lived in the tank for months and have becomes used to weekly water changes and cleaning. I have had discus which hid in panic initially when I did anything in their tank and over time this changed. Suddenly, I found myself having to push then out of my way to reach spots as they had lost most of their fear. So, as noted above, its all relative.
 
One note on the true acclimation of of fish. No matter what you read or are told in most stores and on most sites, acclimation is not something that can be done in a matter of hours or days. Studies show it can take a week or two before the biochemistry inside a fish changes. I realize the following is a bit technical, but the key points in it I have highlighted by changing the test color blue.
 

Gill membrane remodeling with soft-water acclimation in zebrafish (Danio rerio) Abstract
Little is known regarding the ionoregulatory abilities of zebrafish exposed to soft water despite the popularity of this model organism for physiology and aquatic toxicology. We examined genomic and nongenomic changes to gills of zebrafish as they were progressively acclimated from moderately hard freshwater to typical soft water over 7 days and held in soft water for another 7 days. Gills were sampled daily and mRNA expression levels of gill Na+-K+-ATPase (NKA) α1a subunit, epithelium calcium channel (ECaC), carbonic anhydrase-1 and 2 (CA-1, CA-2), Na+/H+ exchanger (NHE-2), V-type proton (H+)-ATPase, and copper transport protein (CTR-1) were quantified by real-time PCR. Changes in enzyme activities of gill NKA were determined and protein levels of NKA and ECaC were quantified by Western blotting. Levels of mRNA for ECaC increased fourfold after day 6, with an associated increase in ECaC protein levels after 1 wk in soft water. CA-1 and CA-2 exhibited a 1.5- and 6-fold increase in gene expression on days 6 and 5, respectively. Likewise, there was a fivefold increase in NHE-2 expression after day 6. Surprisingly, CTR-1 mRNA showed a large transient increase (over threefold) on day 6, while H+-ATPase mRNA did not change. These data demonstrate a high degree of phenotypic plasticity in zebrafish gills exposed to an ion-poor environment. This not only enhances our understanding of ionoregulatory processes in fish but also highlights the need for proper experimental design for studies involving preacclimation to soft water (e.g., metal toxicity).

from http/physiolgenomics.physiology.org/content/30/1/53.full#BIBL
 
I have reviewed other studies in which the time for changes in the internal biochemistry of the fish took two weeks to manifest. So the next time people tell you they are acclimating fish in a matter of hours, try to be polite in your response. Do not laugh out loud. I would note that there is a difference between fresh and salt water fish in terms of the need to acclimate on arrival. I am mostly familiar with the freshwater ones as I have never kept a sw or brackish tank. What I can tell you is I have treated discus in a 10 gal tank which had a full two cups of salt added to it and I was prepared to increase this to 3 cups if the med ordered had not arrived when it did. (The salt was removed and before the med went in, as it also contained salt.) This amount of salt was added on the advice of a discus expert I consulted as I never would have imagined so much salt would have been a help let alone safe. The fish both recovered. So as I noted, when it comes to fish, everything is relative and there are rarely any hard and fast rules that we can apply to all the different fish we may keep and the various situations with which we may have to deal.
 
All that said, your fish appear to have digestive issues which may or may not be caused by parasites or worms. That poop is not normal. If it is simple constipation, then Byron's suggestion should help as long as the fish are eating. My normal assumption is good breeders do not distribute fish which are not in good health. But how one knows they are dealing with a good person or a careless one is often hard to know without input from other sources. If your fish have serious health related issues, they will likely need meds to clear it up. Internal issues are not always parasites/worms, they can also be bacterial. So determining the best treatment may not be so easy. My tendency with uncertainty is to start with the milder solutions first and if they are not helping I will change to stronger medicine. Generally, meds for internal parasites etc. are not too nasty, however, other meds can have more consequences in terms of unwanted side effects in a tank.
 
Also, from looking at that picture another possibility occurs to me in terms of fms, they can get fry bound which will plug them up and can cause fatal complications.

Thanks TTA for that response. The perpetuated simplification of fish acclimation is a good point. I am going to speak to the breeder as he is probably one of the best resources for his guppies in knowing what to do.
My situation is really very specific, a hard water species going from a breeder environment to a relatively new tank(but fishless cycled) and being introduced to different water as well as fish that were likely raised in Singapore and exposed to a whole host of diseases the inbred and sterile fish probably have never been exposed to. All of the fish seemed quite healthy when they were in his tanks.
 
I lost another male a couple hours ago and now I only have the 3 females and 1 male from the breeder. (the last male and the female I posted above look sick)
I fear before I am able to determine a course of action it will be too late.
 
To complicate matters the breeder's son told me that they harden the water for their guppies so the TDS may be quite similar just different salts. (I am waiting for confirmation from the breeder himself).
 
I wanted to add salt to the aquarium but I don't want to kill my plants or harm the other healthy guppies in the system.
I have a 2 gallon(with filter and heater) empty that  I could try this with instead but I need a practical guide.
 
A fish store owner suggested a wide spectrum antibiotic, but I think realistically the prognosis for the sick guppies is very poor( I seem to lose one every morning) and I just want to make sure I keep the 5 remaining healthy fish (2 females that are a week away from dropping) looking fish from developing the same fate. 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Here is what it boils down to, imo. Sick fish reach a point where we believe if we don't do something, we are pretty sure they will die. When we are not reasonably certain about the nature of the problem, and thus the best form of treatment, we have only one last choice to make. Pick the most likely problem and treat for that. This can mean anything from a  massive water to change to dosing some pretty strong meds which may do more harm than good, and anything in between. It is the takeyourbestshot situation.
 
The problem is we are basically rolling dice with the life of the fish, one of the downsides to keeping fish.
 
The best suggestion I can offer here is to assume the fish came in with whatever it was. I do know getting fish from Asia is a crap shoot until one figures out who has healthy stock and who does not. But whenever i hear of issues with Asian fish I tend to think treat for parasites of worms. If its something nastier, finding the proper med with out taking smears from gills, slime, poop etc. and using a microscope would be needed. So any anti-biotic would still be a crapshoot. Most things for internal parasites and worms are not hard on fish the way things for bacterial or external parasites can be.
 
And this gets us to the biggest problems with this internationally popular hobby. It makes a huge difference where in the world one lives as to what meds may or may not be available. The USA is really good for this and places like the UK are not so great. I am not familiar with what is available in Canada, but maybe Byron can help.
 
And without knowing what you would be treating for with any certainty, it is impossible to know if treatment is best in an H tank or thatit is required in the entire tank. So to be safest that usually means one must treat the entire tank .
 
Anybody with any other ideas please chime in as I am at the takeourbestshot stage here.

 

[cl3537]

Here is what it boils down to, imo. Sick fish reach a point where we believe if we don't do something, we are pretty sure they will die. When we are not reasonably certain about the nature of the problem, and thus the best form of treatment, we have only one last choice to make. Pick the most likely problem and treat for that. This can mean anything from a  massive water to change to dosing some pretty strong meds which may do more harm than good, and anything in between. It is the takeyourbestshot situation.
 
The problem is we are basically rolling dice with the life of the fish, one of the downsides to keeping fish.
 
The best suggestion I can offer here is to assume the fish came in with whatever it was. I do know getting fish from Asia is a crap shoot until one figures out who has healthy stock and who does not. But whenever i hear of issues with Asian fish I tend to think treat for parasites of worms. If its something nastier, finding the proper med with out taking smears from gills, slime, poop etc. and using a microscope would be needed. So any anti-biotic would still be a crapshoot. Most things for internal parasites and worms are not hard on fish the way things for bacterial or external parasites can be.
 
And this gets us to the biggest problems with this internationally popular hobby. It makes a huge difference where in the world one lives as to what meds may or may not be available. The USA is really good for this and places like the UK are not so great. I am not familiar with what is available in Canada, but maybe Byron can help.
 
And without knowing what you would be treating for with any certainty, it is impossible to know if treatment is best in an H tank or thatit is required in the entire tank. So to be safest that usually means one must treat the entire tank .
 
Anybody with any other ideas please chime in as I am at the takeourbestshot stage here.

I spoke to the breeder this evening.
 
1) He adds both Calcium Carbonate and Sodium Bicarbonate to his guppy water to give him a hardness of 200ppm and a Ph=8.
So he actually has harder water than I do given how much Calcium he is adding.
 
2) He has several clients near my area with the same water system and hasn't heard any complaints with survival of the fish, most stores are happier with buying from him locally versus the imports which don't seem to last as long.
 
3) He advises his store clients not to mix his fish with imports of any kind as within two weeks all of his fish may die from diseases caught from other fish.
 
4) He beleives in his many years of breeding that guppies actually prefer "dirty" water and infrequent water changes.
He went as far as to say they may actually prefer higher nitrates and he has had some tanks in the past that the water became tinted yellow from how dirty the water is.
 
A well respected local authority and  author Garry Elson suggested the following to me recently:
 
I'm thinking that is a bacterial problem. The clear waste like that doesn't look "wormy". You could spend a few bucks and dose them with prazi-pro, and maybe get a good result from it if I'm wrong (altogether possible). That is the best available med for run of the mill, regular gut parasites. I would try it, since if it is bacterial, there's not much to be done.
 
http/www.hikariusa.com/solutions/healthaid/prazipro/

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Prazipro is Praziquantel. I have this med as well as another 4 or 5 for internal and external parasites and worms.
 
If you suspect a bacterial cause but are not sure what, there are several broad spectrum antibiotics one might try. Here is a good basic article on fish antibiotics types in general http/edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa084
 
If you want to know more about fish parasites than you knew you could, have a look at this article Introduction to Freshwater Fish Parasites  http/edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa04
This site also has a good piece in the Aquatics Area http/www.exoticpetvet.net/  but this is a shortcut to the article http/www.exoticpetvet.net/aqua/parasites.html