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Magnum Man

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seems like every life form has individuals that live longer than expected… this can range from WW-2 vets still alive a 100 years after going through the mental and physical difficulties of war, to my wife’s friend that still cares for her daughters old gecko, ( daughter has grown to adulthood, and has her own family, yet left mom to feed crickets to the gecko ) and that has had a normal pet reptile life, with a limited diet, and has lived 5-6 years longer than they are expected to live… to my 2 single tetras ( one a cardinal, one a rummy nose ) that are going on 2 years here longer than the one to two dozen of their conspecifics, that they arrived here with…certainly my fish world, is not filled with long timers, many more of unexplained short timers… makes one wonder if these examples had better genes, or what caused their longer than “normal” lives…
 
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It's a good question. But it's hard to answer. I have come to the conclusion that most premature fish deaths in my tanks are my doing. The difficulty is in defining what I'm doing wrong with species A that is right with species B. Some individual fish seem tougher, but who's to say they aren't just luckier?

I've had some very long lived fish, and some disasters. You can ask what the lifespan really is. We spent a lot of time and effort collecting biteniatum killies in Benin, and didn't catch one I would consider a full sized adult. I think the heat in the habitats was killing them, and more resilient young ones were making it just to breeding age, and keeping it going. Maybe, very few make it to full adult size, which they do in captivity in 6-8 months. They can live 3 years plus in tanks, but is that a natural lifespan? I doubt it.

I have 3 trios here from a spot that was muddy and shallow a few short weeks ago, and is probably dry cracked earth now. It's still weeks away from rainy season there. They were in the wrong place, and there, our arrival probably did them good. They could live another three years here (if I don't screw up) when in nature, they had less than 3 weeks when we caught them.

We say genetics, but average life expectancy involves diet, culture and economic and social set ups. You looked at the war vets who had lived through nightmares and got to 100. Humans are good examples with clues to life expectancy well documented in the places where our members here are. Since I'm male, let's look at male lives. Women live longer.

On paper, Australia is 10th at close to 84 for men. My country, Canada is 25th in life expectancy at 81 for guys, the UK is 45th at around 79 while the USA is 62nd at 77. Benin, where I saw very few old people, is 226th, with men not averaging 60. That's not genetics, that's social, climate and choices. There are so many factors there, but in aquarium terms, we control a lot of social, and climate issues, and make the choices for our fish. We create the conditions, treat or not the diseases, set the crowding, choose the diets, manage the violence, quarantine or not, manage pollution...

Just genetics will knock off some fish and some people, but I'd have already died several times without our medical, technological, scientific and social systems. I'm lucky. I think we're like our fish - crowd a tank, fail to manage aggression, don't deal with disease, and life expectancies will tumble. I'd make a very negligent deity, because not all my fish have had equal chances as I've learned my way along here.
 
Average ages for wild animals are not so easy to calculate. Their record keeping is too sloppy. :p

The problem has to do with the sample size they use to make an assessment and how much it may or may not be representative of the species. It also matter when and how they make the assessment. Fish in the wild are subject to changing conditions. Some improve things foe them while other do the reverse. And this especially needs to consider the human role in it all.

For example consider fish from the river of Brazil which run through areas where the poorest people are living. For many years ome of the survived by mining gold. "Contamination Risks: Mining releases arsenic through solid tailings, liquid effluents, and gaseous emissions, contaminating air, water, and soil." Big companys are regulated and must do what it takes to handle the potential arsenic. Poor subsistence miner cannot and do not do this. So their activities contaminate the local rivers. But they needed to make a living anyway they could.
However, when they were taught about the ornamental fish industry and the money it involved many switched what they did. Then they behan protecting the rivers rather than harming them. And then things change, Brazil stopped allowing the export of any fish and replaced that with the permitted list of the plants and animals allowed to be exported. This meant fewer fish were to leave the country. An they there is all the damming of the rivers. These push the native people off their land, and they often have negative effects in fish populations including those which are permitted for export. Some some of the people have gone back to mining gold.

So if researcher samples the population of a species which lives in a river after it has been dammed and/or effected by arsenic. this must effect the lifespan of the fish they are investigating. And the reverse would be happening if they did the research when a the river was being effected and then the mining halted. It wshiould be a reasonable assumption that this would effect the coming generation fo those fish.

And this only cover wild fish in the wild, What about fish in our tanks? Consider 1,000 fish come into the country from the wild or fromma fish farm. Some number of these fish will have physiological problem which do not effect behavior or appearance. A dish is born with a bad heart and the older and bigger it grows the more likely it becomes it will have a massive fatal heart attack, So siome number of 1,000 or born doomed to have a less than average lifespan whatever that average might be. An then we can assume dome number of the fish will sufferer injured in transit we do not see either.

Now the fish from the 1,000 that do not die at the importer will find there way to other places. Most will go to wholesalers if private vendors who can buy from the importer or transshipper. And from there the fish will eventually end up in our tanks. No matter how healthy a fish appears when wen acquire it, we have no clue if it has a bad heart ir is healthy as a horse and will life a longer than average life?

And then like GaryE said, when fish dies in our tanks, how do we know it wasn't our fault? There is little way to know since we cannot rule out heart attack, stroke, a mutation we cannot see etc. We can know were forgot to add the declor or we have the wronf parameters etc.

All I can tell you about mu fish is how long I have had them. I lost a 6 inch clown ;loach about 3 or 4 years after I got it. I have one of the other that came with it in a group of 4 which is a foot long, healthy and about 25 years old. I got 4 in 2003 at about 4 inches. I actually froze the one which died and sent it to someone to do an autopsy who told me to freeze it. When he took it apart and checked it out he could find nothing obvious that caused death. He suggested it very well could have been a heart attack or stroke. But everything he was able to examine looked as it shpoul. No he was not a vet etc. He was an expert fish person who was able to make the invesigation of the sort he did and to be able to spot things that did not need in depth lab grade investigations.

I have had zebra plecos die in my tanks and also have some I know are still alive and must be at approaching 25 years old. I got it in Apr. 2006 as one of a colony of proven breeding fish. That was 19 years ago. It had to be 4 or 5 years old at the time. They are in the tank of another member here who was willing to provide them with an "old fish's home." I had my final two offspring and since that was the last of them, I sent them along as well.

IMO. one of the neat things about zebras is that they jide a whole lot. This is especially true if you do not crowd/overcrowd them without providing a ton of cover for them. When we do this, because they hide so much, spotting a tail or fin, let alone a whole fish, it a real treat and always makes one smile. Plus their fry are really cute. But I have no clue how long any specific one of them is going to live.

All we can do in terms of how long any of our fish mught live is to make the effort to give them good parameters, a good diet and to keep the tank in good running condition that they will live longer than if we do not do these things. Our fish only have three real motivations- to stay alive, to find food and to reproduce. And I am not usre if they fail at the last one how much thatmatters to them. After all some fishw ill eat their own eggs or young.
 
I've seen what illegal gold mining does to African rivers. And the large gold mining companies buy the end product, participating in the system. My Parananochromis brevirostris were caught in an affected stream, in 2023. One male of my group of three is still alive, and I have plenty of young. His partner died last year, after many broods.

I'm not a rich man, but I will buy no gold after what I saw - no ingots, no investments, not even any gold chains or attractive teeth. From what friends have told me, the illegal mining has never slowed in Brazil. Gold's worth more than selling fish. But the easy to get to regions where fish are exported from may be depleted.

But I think the test is aquarium fish - the F-1 ones from the wild fish. I may have a technical life expectancy of 81, but I've outlived many good friends already. That's how averages and expectancies work. And so, many fish will fall by the wayside as a group grows out. With captive bred fish, we see how the lifespan plays out.

I had a group of 50 wild caught cardinal tetras wiped out by an environmental disaster at the age of 7, by which time I had 35 or so remaining. So over that 7 years I had them, I had lost 30%. How many of those were because of poor tankmate choices, short periods when the tank had more fish than it should have (never near the online calculator suggested levels, but too high), the squabble period when my wild caught angel group was at war (they never tried to eat adult cardinals, but they were likely flooding the tank with hormones). I missed some water changes and let some filters get nasty. I may have been a cause. Had I given them their fully planted 75 gallon, just to themselves, I might have had 40, or 45 when the wintertime storm hit. If the storm hadn't hit, who knows how many I could have had at 10 years of age?

If the fish don't have tb, have been well nourished at all stages, and well kept in their early days, it's worth it to review what we do if they die. Check temperatures, check diet. Look at your water, and how you change it. There's no call for us to shame ourselves or others, but we don't always do it right. If the fish you buy dies in the first 6 weeks, it can be shipping, etc. If it drops along the way, it could be random disease, as it hits us. But if I keep losing numbers in a species, it's time for a review, and a comparison with the literature and with the advice of other fishkeepers. I'll just say "My friend had these fish, and what happened was...".
 
I don't breed rare fish & I try to keep up with water changes, etc. But I am disappointed if schooly fish don't live at least 5 years. But I know they don't always. I almost expect most loaches & catfish to live close to 10 years or more. I blame myself if they don't. Did I skip a few too many water changes over time? Some disease I didn't notice or guess wrong in time to treat them? I try not to beat myself up over it or feel too guilty. I try my best but it's not always perfect & I allow for that fact. There are limits to my willingness to get each species to their just right tank conditions, unlike some of you guys. I admire your efforts!
 
Just to throw a wrench in the works....

11 common, ubiquitous neons turned 10 last weekend, though they're probably closer to 11 since they were almost at their adult size when purchased. They were rescued from Petsmart during a sale so we already know the source was questionable. We also know thanks to inbreeding they're not as hardy as they used to be. They've spent their entire lives in conditions wholly unsuitable for the species according to, well, pick a source. And yet, they are thriving. Absolute stunning coloration I've never seen in the breed before, they're all active and still eat like the little pigs they've always been, and I'm not seeing any of the usual signs of old age, yet, with the exception of the runt who never should have made it this far anyway. Now 10 years is not outside the range of life expectancy depending on where you get your information but by all rights, or "commonly accepted wisdom," they should all have succumbed long before now.

Am I doing something right? Did I just get lucky with an exceptionally hardy group? I don't know, and frankly I don't care. All these years keeping fish I've never suffered the losses I hear people talking about on forums like this. Some here might think me quite the a$$hole or cruel if they knew how I do things, but the fact is my fish do not die of anything other than old age, and the reasons for a loss in any other case can be directly attributed to something I did. In a way, to me it's a curse, because I always want to try something new. (The neons were supposed to be temporary)

It's an interesting question but I don't think it can be answered definitively.
 
must be something in the water???

I know I’m supposed to have good water for rift lake cichlids, and most live bearers, so my water requires “alteration” to suite most tropicals…

it just seems strange that a “normal” size school of both the cardinals , and the rummy noses, slowly expired over the course of 2 years, leaving a vibrant single of each that have been thriving for about a year longer than all their brothers and sisters, in a tank dedicated towards tetras…

I’m still thinking this comes from farming practices / hormones to control breeding, rapidly growing out young, to get them to a sellable size… it obviously doesn’t effect every fish, but perhaps it makes it more difficult for the average fish to survive???
 
First, I don't believe for a minute there's any inbreeding issue with pet shop neons. It's a myth. There ARE health issues from unhealthy mass production rearing practices.

If you get a good group, you're good, no matter the source. I think the greatest die off post QT with no TB involved are overcrowding, not changing water, adding new tankmates too often (disease and parasite transfer), poor choices in tankmates, and did I say overcrowding? Or shipping? Overfeeding?

Add mistakes. I can trace almost every die off on the edges of a large group to things I am responsible for. Poor QT (not every fish will get sick in a tank). I've fixed that. Wrong diet. I think that's solved. Overcrowding and low water changes. I hope I've got that down. Poor companion fish choices (sometimes I have that fixed).

I also see a higher death rate in fish bought online and shipped. Even though stores get them shipped too, they ship in large quantities, and usually ship better. Plus I have a friend who has shipped me corydoras group fish. He single packs them. They thrive. A store that gets good species insists on packing them in bags of six for the long trip here. I spend extra to get 12, knowing I'll be lucky to save 8. They all arrive alive, but those ones keel over weeks later.
 
When I was actually getting imported fish it was because I was doing a friend of favor. They ordered from overseas via a transshipping operation near the NYC airports. To save her 4 or the 8 hours it took to pick up her order and return home with it I would pick it up at the transhipper and pay for it. Then I would do a round trip drive to meet halfway to their home. I was able to get fish at import prices as a result.

On Sundays the fish would be arriving as planes from all over were landing with fish. The transhipper picked up and cleared a lot of boxes. it was sometimes difficult to get parking near the places as I was for sure not the only one picking up. I used to see vans from some of the chain pet stores parked there. They waere getting the same fish I was at times I am sure. Sometime I ariived earlier than the boxes were ready due to any number of delays that might have happened.

The fish arrived in huge numbers. The transsipper stared by rebagginbg them in new water. In their base ment they had some huge tanks holding the changing water already treated with dechlor and heated to the needed temperatures. They had several people doing the re-bagging water changes working in a line offaucets and drains. More people were putting the sorted fish into the cutomer bixes and labeling them.

One one vist I had to wait for some time and I struck up a conversation with one of the owebers. I was asking about the water they were using and he took me down to the basement and showed me the system.

I had one more advantage. My friend had been importing for a number of years. they had learned which farms to buy the species she normally wanted. This have then a lef up on from whom to buy what. The trnashipper brought in fish from all over asia and S. America. I would get a copy of the lists. If my friend was buying a species I wanted we often shared a box. But if they had no interest insomethig I wanted, I had to buy the minimum whiich was often 50 fish.

What I can say if that I mostly got pretty healthy fish. I almost never had to treat them for anything. I Q for 3 months for imported and farmed fish from overseas. I do a month for stuff raised her in the states or from breeders. There are even a few sources from which I will skip Q. One of these is actually a very high end LFS which may be the most expensive in the country. You can research it yourself: House of Fins in Greenwich, CT. Most reviews will say great fish, great staff and very expensive. I doubt even the few bad reviews are complaining about live fish quality but are upset at what the cost is.

This store requires any potential employee to pass a written test of their fish knowledge. The staff knows its stuff.
 

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