Just Starting Out And Completely Confused!

[iankent]

Hi everyone - I've just finally got everything I need to start my new hobby, but have got a few questions about cycling the tank - I've read so many articles I keep forgetting things!

I've had the tank for 5 days now - cleaned out the tank with hot water only, rinsed the decorations, added everything to the tank then added water. Filter and heater are setup and working, and the light has been on constantly for the last few days. It's a 110L tank, with about 14 small grassy and leafy plants, and about 10 bigger plants. I've also added a small log from LFS which had moss type stuff and small plants already growing on it. It also looks like I've inherited two tiny snails - although I cant find one of them any more!

I've been told by LFS to add hardy fish after a week, but reading up on all the fishless cycling has made it sound like a much better idea, but I'm a bit impatient. Is it possible to keep the fish happy and healthy with daily water changes, and added bacteria from a bottle (as well as the bacteria that came with the logs etc.)? I have the time to do a daily water change if necessary, and the plants should help with the ammonia, but I wanted some advice first! I've already added some of the bottled bacteria hoping to kickstart things.

I bought the API master test kit, and have been testing the levels for the last few days. The ammonia started at 0.25 about 2 days ago, and has now dropped to 0. Nitrate and Nitrite have been 0 for the 3 days since I started testing, and the pH has stayed at 7.4 (oddly, using the lower pH test it reads 7.6+, but with the higher pH test it reads 7.4!). I've also not changed any water so far. Temperature has been a constant 25c.

I really would like to add fish in a few days time if possible, but dont want to do it if it'll harm the fish. I've rambled on a bit, but basically I'm asking if daily water changes, constant water monitoring and added bacteria are enough to avoid ammonia or nitrite poisoning?

thanks in advance!

edit: here's a photo of my tank: <a href="http/flickr.com/photos/iankent/2439083710/" target="_blank">http/flickr.com/photos/iankent/2439083710/</a>
worked out how to add a photo here:

 

[ShoC]

you wont be able to Avoid the poisoning, but will be able to Reduce the affects with Daily water changes etc...
But to be honest it's cheaper, More kinder to do a complete cycle before adding,

as with doing a Fish in (essentialy what you want to do) you will have to gradually increase the number of fish you have slowly.
where as doing a complete cycle you can then add a huge batch of fish at once... (meaning no fish has established teritory at the start so less squabling)
and less risk of illness (so less $$££$$ on medicines on fish)

Hope that helps

 

[pirate monkey]

Hi Ian and to the forum!

Also congratulations on finding a good source of information before you've got yourself any fish! This is an excellent site with lots of extremely knowledgeable people who can give you lots of advice and help you start out.


Firstly, it is completely up to you whether you do a fish-in or a fishless cycle, but I (and many others) will urge you to please do a fishless cycle! It is a lot kinder to the fish that you will keep, and it is a lot less hard work for you as well!

It's great you've got an API master kit, as that is one of the best, and you've tested your water so now you have readings of your base line tests. This kit will be your best friend for a while! Do you have some dechlorinator? this is vital as chlorine is harmful to your fish and the filter bacteria you are trying to grow by cycling.

OK, you don't need to keep you tank lights on constantly, just 10-12 hours a day will be fine for the plants, otherwise you may start getting unwanted algae growth. The plants also need a rest from the light as that is what happens in nature.

so back to the cycling...

I know it may seem like a long time to wait while your tank is cycling, but you can use this time to read up about the fish you would like to keep, and ask the guys here to see if they are suitable for your set up etc. As you learn more about fish keeping you will realise that sometimes the advice that your lfs gives is not always the best lol!

I'm doing a fishless cycle at the moment, and I started with a bit of mature filter media. this is a bit of sponge from a mature tank, and already has some bacteria in it and can help your fishless cycle go a bit quicker! Do you have a friend who has a tank, or maybe your lfs might donate some. The bogwood you have already, if that came from a tank will also have some bacteria on it. If you decide to go this route, you'll need to get yourself a bottle of household ammonia, Boots or Homebase sell it, only a couple of quid.

the bottled bacteria you bought may not be that helpful, I'm sorry to say! If it was a refrigerated product then it is more likely that it will have the necessary bacteria, but lfs are prone to selling you things you don't really need!

If you decide to do a fish cycle you will need to test the water probably twice a day or more, keeping track of the ammonia and nitrite levels. These will need to be kept below 0.25ppm, which (as you said) will be done by water changes (with dechlorinated tap water) but you may have to do multiple water changes each day! It is a lot of hard work, and really even the slight levels of ammonia and nitrite are still toxic to fish, and they will never be at their full health once exposed..

I hope this helps, you certainly seem to have done a lot of research already! Let us know what you decide to do, and if you go for fishless cycling you will have lots of moral support here while you are patiently waiting!

 

[iankent]

thanks for your advice! i'm more than happy to add fish slowly as I dont really know how many I can comfortably fit

I'm only adding community fish (neon tetra and the like), so territory shouldn't be too much of a problem. I was thinking initially only adding 3 or 4 neon tetras, as they're very small anyway, but still I'd rather avoid harming them at all.

I've read a few posts where people have (or claim to have) successfully cycled a tank in just over a week. Are the water readings the only way to know, because all mine have been ok even though a small amount of ammonia initially showed up (so presumably it's now been broken down or absorbed by the plants?)

edit:

posted before your reply! thanks for the information. i've been reading through pages and pages of info on this site for the last few weeks, so think I'm getting there slowly! desperately looking forward to getting my first fish, but will somehow manage if it means keeping their health!

my plans at the moment are something along these lines: 6 neon tetra, 2 african dwarf frogs, 1 of the smaller catfish variety and possibly a few more shoaling fish (space permitting!). I'm not too sure about the snails I've inherited, so am going to wait and see how big they get over the next few months.

i dont mind too much about losing the money on the bacteria - i had a bad feeling about the whole idea anyway. is there any point in emptying the rest of the bottle in anyway (either all in one or over a few days), or is it just as useful as tapwater? i'd forgotten about the dechlorinating bit, but picked up some stuff today ready for water changes.

will be getting a timer for the light tomorrow - had read somewhere that leaving the light on 24hrs for the first few days can help speed up the cycling process. wish I'd known you could get it at boots - went past one earlier today! dont suppose tesco or asda sell it? did have a look but couldnt find anything.

also, when should I be doing the first water changes, and then how often? so many posts I've read are giving so many options that I've got no idea what to do next!

and finally, even though I gave the tank the best clean I could, it still looks a bit dirty in places - especially in a photo! whats the best way for cleaning the inside glass of the tank once it's full of water or got fish in?

another edit: the driftwood did come from a tank which had a few snails in it, and plenty of plants growing in it - didnt notice any fish though.

thanks

 

[Tobigara]

it's good that your thinking about the fish's health.
if you want to speed up the cycling process use some mature media. there is a list somewhere on this forum of all the people here that will donate mature media if you can't get any from a friend or the lfs.

if you decide to do a fishless cycle (which i recomend) make sure you buy pure ammonia with no additives like surfactants. a simple way to tell if it's good to use in an aquarium is to shake it real good. if you only get a couple of bubbles then you're good but if it foams up or gets frothy put it down and look elsewhere. one of the other benefits of fishless cycling is that you don't need to do water changes at all untill right before you add all of your fish.

you can get magnetic scrubbers at a lfs or you can use aquarium wipes to clean the inside of the glass

with the fish you have listed your tank will be understocked. you should be able to add a few more at least

 

[iankent]

i seen the aquarium wipes in one of the many shops i've been to recently - i'm assuming i can get them online though if I cant find them in the shops again!

definately like the sound of no water changes until I add fish, but the only problem was not being able to find ammonia - will check boots tomorrow though.

i'm glad you say it'll be understocked - I was worried that I wouldn't be able to get many fish in there (especially based on the 1" rule). I'd like to add a few extra neon tetra and a different schooling fish, but dont really know what sort of numbers I can put in there safely. I like the look of the angelfish but am worried they'd get too big for the tank - the fighter fish look amazing too, but I read they're a bit more difficult to look after, so am avoiding one for now.

edit: just checked out that list of people willing to donate, and there's not really anyone nearby (south wales area) - I'll try asking a few friends if I can have some from their tank!

 

[iankent]

Sorry to bump this, just got a quick question around ammonia calculations - Homebase did have ammonia - £1.99 for 0.5L bottle at 9.5%!

If I'm right, the first aim under fishless cycling is to bring the ammonia up to 5ppm, which works out at roughly 0.55ml pure ammonia for a 110L tank? (Or 5.78ml of 9.5% ammonia?)

If this is right, then I'll get started with adding the first 6ml of ammonia today! Just wanted to double check so I dont end up putting far too much ammonia in!

thanks

 

[Tobigara]

if your math is right then i think you're on the right track just remember to test often

if you're gonna keep neon tetras you will want to stay away from angels. neons are a natural food for angels

 

[iankent]

guess i wont be getting angels then they do look nice though!

I think/hope my maths is right - sounds quite reasonable at least lol! Have just added 4.5ml to be on the safe side, so if I've got it right I should see my Ammonia levels rise to about 4-5ppm in about an hour or so?

edit:
wish I'd known just how BAD this ammonia stuff smells - made me gag! anyway, 45 minutes later and I've just tested the water again - it looks pretty much the same colour as the 4.0ppm marking on the card, so I'm assuming my calculation was about right!

If anyone has the use for it, I put the last 45 mins to good use building this:
http/aquarium.stormail.co.uk/ammonia.php
It calculates how much ammonia you need to add during fishless cycling, and will work for both add and wait, and add daily methods. If you have a chance to check it out, let me know what you think and if there's anything plainly wrong or that I've missed out!

 

[waterdrop]

Well, we'll have to hope your 4.5ml has worked out for you - didn't get to your thread before you did this. Its almost always better not to assume a measured amount (initially) will work out right - that's why RDD wrote up the test in his article - better to measure into a test bucket of 1 or 2 gallons, then measure what that did, play with it and be left with knowing a lot better the amount/gallon (or amount/litre obviously) that -your- ammonia needs to be added at to reach your desired ppm level. Sounds like you left in enough "wiggle" room, so probably worked out and we will be interested to hear!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[iankent]

Funnily enough, science and maths proved right as always - the test water is still in front of me and hasnt moved past the 4ppm marker - the next marker is 8ppm, so I assume there's some room for error here! My calculation (assuming I added 4.5ml instead of 5.7ml) shows that I should have 3.88ppm at the moment.

Using the calculator I made, I should add another 1.3millilitres of homebase ammonia to reach 5ppm!

edit: just found the calculator link at the top of the forum, lol... would still appreciate any feedback on the calculator though!

 

[waterdrop]

Oh your fine then. This whole process is somewhat more crude than the type of numbers you are using. During the first phase you just don't want the ammonia result getting up there close to that 8ppm color. You want to be down there somewhere near 4ppm and then just be patient and test every day to watch for the much-desired drop toward zero.

 

[pirate monkey]

I just checked out your calculator page - it's really good!

wish i'd pointed you to the calculator here before you did all that hard work, but that's a really useful site for anyone wanting to start an aquarium! It's very clearly laid out and I like that you have put your log on there, that's always helpful to new people to see what to expect from their cycle.

Good job lol wish I could do stuff like that!

Oh yeah ammonia stinks, I was gagging this morning when I topped my tank up... Should come with a warning on the bottle

I'd like to know who actually uses this stuff to clean their house, imagine what that would smell like!


I was going to say yesterday (but the website went funny for a while and i couldn't be bothered to retype it all again...)

Don't worry yourself too much on stocking with the " per gallon thing as it really is a basic guide and not a rule as such. There are other factors that it doesn't take into account (eg larger fish or territorial fish). Instead if you just post on here what you want people can advise you accordingly!

In my 96l I have 6 silvertip tetra, 8 neon (soon to be 16), 3 dwarf gourami, a pair of kribensis (dwarf cichlids) and 3 amano shrimps. I also had a plec in there but he didn't get on with my kribs so I moved him to my catfish tank, I'll probably replace him with a bristle nose. That stocking makes the tank look busy but not overcrowded and your tank is larger so you could have 2 large schools (with schooling fish they are happier in bigger numbers) a catfish, the frogs and some sort of centre piece fish.

Just a thought that's popped in my head, I remember reading about adf's having poor eyesight and having difficulty finding food when they are in community tanks. I don't know how much you've looked into them but it might be worth posting about them in the amphibian + reptiles section, just to make sure they'll be hunkydory in your set up.

 

[iankent]

thanks for the info! it doesnt matter too much about the wasted time, needed something to do anyway! plus I know its always there when I need it. and it got me started on a little aquarium website, so it wasnt really wasted!

as soon as my tanks ready I'm going to post my final wishlist of fish, and see where I go from there! I've looked into the frogs, and i've read in a few places that they dont mind community tanks, just so long as you give them their own food somewhere easy to find it regularly, like on a small plate. will read around in the forum you suggest though!

i would like to have two lots of schooling fish, one lot of neon tetras, but i cant decide on the others yet - i need to go back to the LFS and look at them all again! any suggestions? when you say a centre piece fish, what sort are you talking about?

i do have a question about fishless cycling though - I got the ammonia level up to 4ppm on the colour card earlier, and about 7 hours later its dropped down to 1.5ppm. I've checked the nitrites and its definately still on 0, but the nitrates seem to have gone up very slightly (they're not 0 but they're not 5 either - estimating around 3 to 4ppm?). does this mean my tank already has some of the bacteria it needs (i did add some of that bottled bacteria stuff a few days ago!), or just that my plants have absorbed most of the ammonia? and is it worth me adding more ammonia so more bacteria is produced?

edit: i've added another 4ml of ammonia - that should bring me back up to 5ppm. will measure again in the morning and see where it is!

another edit: i've discovered what looks to be a few hundred snails! absolutely tiny things all over the glass that can only be seen using a magnifying glass! i'm gonna need some snail eating fish to get rid of these for me! could this mean there was already some bacteria present when I started cycling, which could explain increased nitrates but missing nitrites, and all in the space of the first 8 hours of adding ammonia?

thanks!

 

[pirate monkey]

I have silvertip tetras, they're really fun! they're so bold and always playing chase with each other! they're a bit bigger than neons, and very hardy so would be ideal first fish for the tank. Not saying you have to get some, just being biased lol!

I think rosy tetra are really nice, but I don't know what they're personalities are like!

A centre piece fish would be a bigger fish that you either have one, a pair or a trio (as is the case with gouramis). You don't have to have a centrepiece but IMO the tank can look like it's missing something.

Suggestions: (maybe other people can suggest some I haven't thought of!)

Dwarf gourami - males are more colourful, females are usually silver, but I have got some blue ones (from Maidenhead Aquatics). Should be kept in trios of 1 male and 2 female as the males are a little aggressive to the females!

Other types of gourami may also be suitable, but beware 'cos a lot of them can get quite large!

Or you could go with a type of dwarf cichlid such as kribensis or rams (gold, blue or bolivian). If I remember rightly the bolivian is more hardy than the gold or blue, but aren't as pretty. I think gold and blue rams prefer softer water, and like the neons will do better when introduced to a mature tank (been running for a few months).


With regards to your cycle, 1ppm of ammonia produces 2.7 ppm of nitrite, so if all that ammonia had been processed by the bacteria you would have quite high nitrites. I can't remember the exact figure now but I think the 2.7ppm of nitrite then process into ~3.7 ish nitrate, so then you would have very high nitrates too. It might well be your plants have absorbed it!! Do add more ammonia but make sure to only add it once per day otherwise it can have an adverse affect if you keep adding too much!