Just Finished A Fishless Cycle Using Ammonia And...

[northof60]

I have a couple of questions.

I have a 29 gallon tank, spiked it with ammonia to 5ppm until I saw nitites, then added ammonia to keep the level from 3-5 until it dissappeared. My tank was proceesing 3-5 ppm of ammonia in 10-12 hours which from my understanding, is a good load of ammonia eaters. My nitirite spike lasted forever so I added some seasonned gravel from a local pet shop, a stocking in my filter and one on the gravel bed, the nitrite spike disappeared in 24 hours so I left the used gravel in for a couple more days, tested again nitrite still 0, ammonia 0, and nitrates off the chart. Did a huge water change and have since added some fish. I tested today and have nitrite again, not alot but they are present, (0.3) no ammonia, and about 60ppm of nitrates. I did a 50% water change and tested again, still have nitrites, although they are now about (0.1).

Should I change another 50%?


Second question, because of my huge colony of ammonia eaters I assumed from all I have read that it would be OK to fully stock right away. I stocked it good, but maybe to much is what I am wondering, here is what I have in it:

2 Gold Gouramis (I know I should only have one, they are relativly peacefull with the others but one chases the other a fair bit)
5 black skirt tetras (3 very small)
5 serpae tetras
5 bronze corys
3 swordtail guppys (1 male and 2 females)
2 rubynose tetras
1 angelfish

Cheers!

 

[Amunet]

How long did you wait before getting fish? It's usually a good idea to wait a little bit longer to make sure everything is stable in your tank before adding fish.
Since we can't really do that now lol, I would def keep up the water changes until you can get the nitrites to 0.
It's usually ok to fully stock a tank (depending on how messy the fish are) that's been fishless cycled b/c the beneficial bacteria that builds up is enough to handle it. I'd cut down on how much you're feeding them for the time being. Just until you're not getting any more nitrite readings.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi northof60 and welcome to the forums!

It sounds like you -almost- did the fishless cycling process like we do it around here in the beginners forum but just didn't finish out the last part like we do with the "qualifying week" and all that, which is the part where our beginners usually get really impatient waiting for the N-Bacs (the nitrite(NO2) eating bacteria) to fully build up. This is why you're seeing some nitrite.

Basically this just puts you into a mild "fish-in" cycling situation until that second colony can build itself up to full size, which shouldn't take too long. The goal is the same as it always is with fish-in cycling. You just test twice a day with your liquid-based kit and plan on doing water changes if you see any ammonia or nitrite(NO2.) You want to adjust your frequency and percentage of water changes such that neither the ammonia nor nitrite level rises above 0.25ppm by the next time you test, 12 hours out. Most people figure out a time they can test in the morning such that 12 hours later is a time they will be back home to test again and be able to do another water change if necessary. You can adjust your percentage or frequency up or down based on where you're turning up relative to that 0.25ppm crossover point. Make sense?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[northof60]

How long did you wait before getting fish? It's usually a good idea to wait a little bit longer to make sure everything is stable in your tank before adding fish.
Since we can't really do that now lol, I would def keep up the water changes until you can get the nitrites to 0.
It's usually ok to fully stock a tank (depending on how messy the fish are) that's been fishless cycled b/c the beneficial bacteria that builds up is enough to handle it. I'd cut down on how much you're feeding them for the time being. Just until you're not getting any more nitrite readings.

Hello Amunet, and thanks for the prompt reply. To answer your question, evidently not long enough, lol! Seriously though, I waited only a couple of days, nitrates were off the charts, and no sign of the "never ending nitrite spike" I did a large water change and added the fish the next day. Tested first, everything was OK, nitrates were still higher than I'd like, but I waited so darn long for the nitrites to exit, which were still at 0 happily I know now I got newbie impatient. As I said my ammonia eating bacteria pre-stocking was processing 3-5 ppm in 10-12 hours.

Thanks, I'll keep up the H2O changes.

 

[northof60]

Hi northof60 and welcome to the forums!

It sounds like you -almost- did the fishless cycling process like we do it around here in the beginners forum but just didn't finish out the last part like we do with the "qualifying week" and all that, which is the part where our beginners usually get really impatient waiting for the N-Bacs (the nitrite(NO2) eating bacteria) to fully build up. This is why you're seeing some nitrite.

Basically this just puts you into a mild "fish-in" cycling situation until that second colony can build itself up to full size, which shouldn't take too long. The goal is the same as it always is with fish-in cycling. You just test twice a day with your liquid-based kit and plan on doing water changes if you see any ammonia or nitrite(NO2.) You want to adjust your frequency and percentage of water changes such that neither the ammonia nor nitrite level rises above 0.25ppm by the next time you test, 12 hours out. Most people figure out a time they can test in the morning such that 12 hours later is a time they will be back home to test again and be able to do another water change if necessary. You can adjust your percentage or frequency up or down based on where you're turning up relative to that 0.25ppm crossover point. Make sense?

~~waterdrop~~

Thanks for the welcome waterdrop.

Makes perfect sense waterdrop, I indeed got impatient and figured the nitrite chewers were in full force since my nitrates were off the chart and the nitrites had disappeared. What kind of volume for water changes are we talking here, 30%, 50%? If I do to many to often won't that kick start the cycle again and/or interfere with what has already taken place cycle wise?

Thanks in adavance for your patience.

 

[waterdrop]

Hi northof60 and welcome to the forums!

It sounds like you -almost- did the fishless cycling process like we do it around here in the beginners forum but just didn't finish out the last part like we do with the "qualifying week" and all that, which is the part where our beginners usually get really impatient waiting for the N-Bacs (the nitrite(NO2) eating bacteria) to fully build up. This is why you're seeing some nitrite.

Basically this just puts you into a mild "fish-in" cycling situation until that second colony can build itself up to full size, which shouldn't take too long. The goal is the same as it always is with fish-in cycling. You just test twice a day with your liquid-based kit and plan on doing water changes if you see any ammonia or nitrite(NO2.) You want to adjust your frequency and percentage of water changes such that neither the ammonia nor nitrite level rises above 0.25ppm by the next time you test, 12 hours out. Most people figure out a time they can test in the morning such that 12 hours later is a time they will be back home to test again and be able to do another water change if necessary. You can adjust your percentage or frequency up or down based on where you're turning up relative to that 0.25ppm crossover point. Make sense?

~~waterdrop~~

Thanks for the welcome waterdrop.

Makes perfect sense waterdrop, I indeed got impatient and figured the nitrite chewers were in full force since my nitrates were off the chart and the nitrites had disappeared. What kind of volume for water changes are we talking here, 30%, 50%? If I do to many to often won't that kick start the cycle again and/or interfere with what has already taken place cycle wise?

Thanks in adavance for your patience.

Oh my no! Water changes are your friend and the bacteria don't reside in the water. The two species of chemolithoautotrophic bacteria you are growing clamp themselves tightly to the biomedia inside the filter and feed off the ammonia and fresh oxygen brought by on the water flow. Their optimal growth is actually somewhat inhibited by high nitrates and even high nitrites(NO2) (even though that is the food for the second species!) and so they will actually grow better the fresher the water. Their ammonia source will be a steady small flow from the fish waste once you have fish. You can't even measure this small flow of ammonia in a mature tank with a liquid kit, but its there of course, feeding the A-Bac colony.

So the simplistic answer to your question is that from the standpoint of fish-in cycling, you would rarely if ever find such a thing as "too large" a water change. But there are other factors of course. First, it is important to determine that your water has zero ammonia, nitrite and nitrate coming in from the tap. If you have significant ammonia coming in, for instance, you would need to adjust the percentage down and the frequency up so that smaller doses of incoming ammonia would be more diluted and there would be less exposure to the fish. There are also other aspects of good water change technique that apply not in your case of a new tank but when people have more mature tanks where perhaps water has not been changed frequently enough, resulting in a situation where sudden changes of hardness or other factors in a large water change might shock the fish.

So I tend to say 50% changes for times when you see 0.50ppm or less and 70% changes above that, with retesting in the latter case.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Miss Wiggle]

i think whats happened is you added some mature gravel which will have had some nitrite munching bacteria on it, this sorted out the nitrite and so you figured you were fine to add fish, then you removed the gravel and consequently removed some of the bacteria. some will have populated across from the gravel to your filter media but it takes a good few weeks for a full cross pollenation as it were!

if you'd left the gravel in chances are you'd have been fine.

however as WD quite correctly states you are now fish-in cycling however you've got a really good head start from the fishless cycle first, so it'll hopefully just be a short while, maybe a week or so of daily water changes before that nitrite all disappears.

you have got a fairly high level of fish for a fish in cycle as well which will exacerbate things a little.

the gourami and angels will probably not get on long term (usually fine while they're juvi's but in a year or so they'll start fighting quite seriously), also angels need a very tall tank (at least 18" high) and generally do not do well in newly cycled tanks, they are very ammonia intolerant.

So I would advise you to take the angel back to the shop and also perhaps the rummy nose tetras and the guppies, again both these fish can be a bit sensitive and are fairly unlikely to make it through the cycle.

 

[northof60]

Hi northof60 and welcome to the forums!

It sounds like you -almost- did the fishless cycling process like we do it around here in the beginners forum but just didn't finish out the last part like we do with the "qualifying week" and all that, which is the part where our beginners usually get really impatient waiting for the N-Bacs (the nitrite(NO2) eating bacteria) to fully build up. This is why you're seeing some nitrite.

Basically this just puts you into a mild "fish-in" cycling situation until that second colony can build itself up to full size, which shouldn't take too long. The goal is the same as it always is with fish-in cycling. You just test twice a day with your liquid-based kit and plan on doing water changes if you see any ammonia or nitrite(NO2.) You want to adjust your frequency and percentage of water changes such that neither the ammonia nor nitrite level rises above 0.25ppm by the next time you test, 12 hours out. Most people figure out a time they can test in the morning such that 12 hours later is a time they will be back home to test again and be able to do another water change if necessary. You can adjust your percentage or frequency up or down based on where you're turning up relative to that 0.25ppm crossover point. Make sense?

~~waterdrop~~

Thanks for the welcome waterdrop.

Makes perfect sense waterdrop, I indeed got impatient and figured the nitrite chewers were in full force since my nitrates were off the chart and the nitrites had disappeared. What kind of volume for water changes are we talking here, 30%, 50%? If I do to many to often won't that kick start the cycle again and/or interfere with what has already taken place cycle wise?

Thanks in adavance for your patience.

Oh my no! Water changes are your friend and the bacteria don't reside in the water. The two species of chemolithoautotrophic bacteria you are growing clamp themselves tightly to the biomedia inside the filter and feed off the ammonia and fresh oxygen brought by on the water flow. Their optimal growth is actually somewhat inhibited by high nitrates and even high nitrites(NO2) (even though that is the food for the second species!) and so they will actually grow better the fresher the water. Their ammonia source will be a steady small flow from the fish waste once you have fish. You can't even measure this small flow of ammonia in a mature tank with a liquid kit, but its there of course, feeding the A-Bac colony.

So the simplistic answer to your question is that from the standpoint of fish-in cycling, you would rarely if ever find such a thing as "too large" a water change. But there are other factors of course. First, it is important to determine that your water has zero ammonia, nitrite and nitrate coming in from the tap. If you have significant ammonia coming in, for instance, you would need to adjust the percentage down and the frequency up so that smaller doses of incoming ammonia would be more diluted and there would be less exposure to the fish. There are also other aspects of good water change technique that apply not in your case of a new tank but when people have more mature tanks where perhaps water has not been changed frequently enough, resulting in a situation where sudden changes of hardness or other factors in a large water change might shock the fish.

So I tend to say 50% changes for times when you see 0.50ppm or less and 70% changes above that, with retesting in the latter case.

~~waterdrop~~

Hi again waterdrop, sorry for the delay responding.

No offense intended drop but I know water changes are my friend and probably the most useful, practical, and readily available tool at my disposal. I also know that bacteria doesn't reside in the water, but was concerned that continual water temp fluctuation could stunt or even kill the bacteria, although I think I get the water temp pretty darn close.

I don't believe I'm doing a fish in cycle now,(I know I'm a rookie but...) as I said my nitrites at the time were off the chart, the nitrates were also off the chart, and 3- 5ppm of ammonia was being processed in 12 hours, which is a large amount of ammonia from what I've read. I had and still have a healthy happy colony of ammonia eaters. My nitrites had been high for quite some time and at the time I added the seasoned gravel to my tank they had faded a touch at that time. I didn't mention that btw, sorry. Anyway, I'm of the feeling my nitrite eating bacteria was on the verge of chowing down on the nitrite when I added the seasoned gravel and thus it just gave it the final push it needed.

As far as fish in cycling goes, I have done one already, a 10 gallon tank, which I made some mistakes from at the get go, and lost 1 fish out of 6, which I now know was way to many. I went to walmart to get started and probably talked to the tire guy, lol! I cycled my 10 gallon with 2 black skirts, 2 angelfish and two corys, lost an angelfish. I now know that certain fish have certain requirements, tank size etc. and am glad so far at least that the others are doing well. The corys are still in the ten gallon but the two black skirts and angelfish are now in my 29 gallon, and seem to be happier and thriving in their new "digs". Needless to say before I do anything from now on, I'll do some research first and/or come here.

Oh, and I've tested my tank since first posting here and doing a 50% warer change and its ammonia 0 nitrite 0. Haven't tested for nitrates yet....

Cheers

 

[northof60]

i think whats happened is you added some mature gravel which will have had some nitrite munching bacteria on it, this sorted out the nitrite and so you figured you were fine to add fish, then you removed the gravel and consequently removed some of the bacteria. some will have populated across from the gravel to your filter media but it takes a good few weeks for a full cross pollenation as it were!

if you'd left the gravel in chances are you'd have been fine.

however as WD quite correctly states you are now fish-in cycling however you've got a really good head start from the fishless cycle first, so it'll hopefully just be a short while, maybe a week or so of daily water changes before that nitrite all disappears.

you have got a fairly high level of fish for a fish in cycle as well which will exacerbate things a little.

the gourami and angels will probably not get on long term (usually fine while they're juvi's but in a year or so they'll start fighting quite seriously), also angels need a very tall tank (at least 18" high) and generally do not do well in newly cycled tanks, they are very ammonia intolerant.

So I would advise you to take the angel back to the shop and also perhaps the rummy nose tetras and the guppies, again both these fish can be a bit sensitive and are fairly unlikely to make it through the cycle.

You know I thought and wondered about how long I should leave the seasoned gravel in. My nitrite spike had been going a while and as I just mentioned to drop, and didn't mention intially the nitrite looked like a little less the day I added the seasoned gravel.

If I intended to do a fish in cycle there wouldnt be that many fish in there, believe me, so I'm really hoping this is not the case, and that my initial fishless cycle with the addition of the seasoned gravel, time period, amount of ammonia eaters, and the fact that there would have been at least a start of nitrite eaters showing up when I put the seasoned gravel in, jump started the end of the cycle. Wishful thinking maybe but.....I'll keep you posted.

Btw, I took the bully gourami out, the angelfish and the mellower gourami are getting along fine, and in fact are quite indifferent to one another, they will even eat bloodworms side by side. The angelfish and my two adult black skirts are good buddies to, they came over to the 29 gallon together from another tank. My 29 gal is 18 inches high, the angel is in heaven compared to where it came from and went through.
I've grown attached so he/she? is staying put, but thanks for the advice.

As I said to drop, since I first posted here and did a 50% change, ammonia 0 nitrite 0.

Cheers