Just A Theoretical Question

[Nevergone815]

ok, i know that this is probably going to cause a debate (though that isn't why i posted it). i have a legitimate question...

since you keep tiger barbs in large groups to spread out the aggression, female bettas in gruops to avoid aggression, along with many others, is ity possible ot keep multiple male bettas in the same tank?

i see it that theoretically it should work right? i mean if i put say 20 male bettas in a 75 gallon tank, the aggression should be spread out so one fish can't prey on others ad they would have multiple places to hide. if this is true in the female betta, barb, cichlids, ect., why can't it be done with male bettas. and bymale bettas i don't mean the wild strains, i know they can be kept together, i am talking about the betta splendens. if you were worried about too much fin nipping, you could do the more short-finned varieties like plakats or crowntails even.

again i didn't post this to get people going, i posted because i think in theory it could be done, but i know that theory isn't everything in the fish world, but i was just thinking "if you can do it with other fish... why can't you do it with makle bettas?" since we breed for color now and not aggression i'm thinking that this may be more possible now. there must be betta splendens in the wild still right? and since bettas, though they grow to 3" or so, they are still considered small for some of the fish that eat them, so they must stay near eachother (strength in numbers), so wouldn't males be able to be near each other peacefully in the wild? and for you "size of tank" fanatics here 20 bettas in a 75 gallon is 3.75 gallons a piece so that won't be an issue to most.

to the mods, i apologize if this leads to a fight as it is not my intention, my intention is to create an answer and better understand our little freinds we keep. why are they so different when man keeps them, but in the wild they are perfectly fine? to me that just signifies that man should stop using their arrogant, egotistic minds and leave the world alone and stop thinking that we make everything "better". this may also be my last post in the betta section as this is my last hope of finding a "freindly" discussion. every other section can debate peacefully, but the "betta fanatics" seem to take things too far. i legitimately want to know why is it that we messed them up so badly, and am seriously questioning if we would be able to put multiple males in a tank to even out aggression. like i said, it is done with other species that are much more aggressive, why can't we do it with male bettas?

 

[RandomWiktor]

The one issue I think you are forgetting here is that unlike kribs and other territorial, agressive species, the male Betta splendens has been deliberately breed to be excessively violent. They were selected for traits conducive to fighting. Males were deliberately bred over the years to be hyper-agressive to a fault, so that they could be battled for betting purposes. While bettas in the wild would normally form a territory and only attack males who entered theirs, bettas in captivity are unfortunately likely to attack any male or any fish that looks like a male even if it is outside of his territory. And the only type of betta who could really handle a 75g - the plakat, for the others have finnage that is much too heavy and would rapidly grow distressed - is unforunately also the type that has historically been used in fighting and is thus much more likely to be peculiarly agressive than tamer, showier counterparts.
Also, much of the literature I've read states that wild splendens have territories with about 1-7 bettas per square meter. Depth isn't really discussed, but that means if you had a tank 3 feet wide and 3 feet long, the most WILD bettas who could live there without conflict would be about 7, though I'm sure at some times of the year they are much more crowded. So really, even in a 75g tank, 20 bettas would probably be overcrowded in terms of territoriality (not gallonage) - especially for the hyperagressive domesticated bettas. Not to mention the fact that it'd be awfully deep for a betta's comfort - they prefer fairly shallow water, not that they couldn't survive in deeper. ((Oh yeah - your comment on tank size "fanatics" was a little inappropriate.))
The "safety in numers" theory you have is incorrect. Each species has its own mechanism for surviving predation. Some fish do group together for protection. Bettas are not one of them, and are highly territorial by nature. Remember - all agressive species are fundamentally different in their agressive behavior. Remember -Chinese Algae Eater is not a Krib is not a Betta. Though your theories are interesting, they do not seem too well researched; have you read much on behavior of bettas in the wild? Because some of your assumptions appear misguided, though certainly thought-provoking.
Also, we still do breed bettas for agression; betta fighting is very much alive and well throughout the world, and while we have bred more color and finnage in, we haven't been breeding agression OUT. It would take years of selectively breeding for passive traits to achieve "community bettas," probably just as many years as it took to get them this agressive.
So, while it may be possible, it would be exceedingly irresponsible for anyone to attempt it, at least as domesticated bettas stand behaviorally today. There is a very high likelihood of fighting, injury, and death, and no truly responsible fish keeper would do something with such a high potential of danger to the fish. What's more, while bettas can certainly be kept in much greater gallonage than many keep them in, a tank that is over 1ft deep is probably uncomfortable for them as they have a strong preference for wide, long, shallow bodies of water. In other words, this "experiment" would take bettas out of their element as a solitary, territorial, hyper-agressive species, and would keep them in less-than-ideal tank conditions. Overall, not what a fishkeeper should be shooting for.

 

[Nevergone815]

i thank you for not ripping me and actually discussing it. i didn't put much research into it. it was jsut a thought that came to me. you made a really good point that i forgot. either the fish would have too long of fins and be easy targets or they would need to be plakats and plakats are more aggressive. i was jsut thinking that since we now breed for beauty and not aggression anymore then maybe it will work, but apparently not.

i was jsuthtinking that females can sometimes be jsut as a ggressive as makles and we can achieve putting these together...

i know that in the wild they prefer to be closer to the banks than out in the opne waters that are deeper, and all fish that are small will stay closer together in the wild as to help cut down predation. it isn't a sure cut way, but it does help a little.

as for the "community bettas" i have had a decent number do very well in community tanks with platties, guppies, neons, swordtails etc... basically all the "don't do" situations of bettas and they were healthy and happy and they and the other fish never bothered each other. this helped to raise me to the beleif that maybe through not purposely breeding for agression (at least over in the states) that by accident we are recrating the more "natural" aggression level of bettas.

like i said though, it was jsut an idea that popped into my head and i didn't do much additional research outside of what i already knew. i jsut wanted ot share it to see if anyone else has at least thought about it, and hear ow possible this even is. you made a really good point about water depth as well. that never occured to me when i posted those numbers. it was one of those "i wonder if you could actually put males together... i'll see what others think" kind of things. again i thank you for the quick, freindly response and most importantly not ripping at me but instead discussing it. thank you!

 

[Darkmoon Bettas]

I've heard of it being attempted several times with very poor results. The ONLY time it's succeeded has been in a very large tank or pond, when the batch has all been raised together from fry, and they still squabble quite a lot. But even in an established "raised" community, the moment an adult male is mixed into the equation, everything seems to break loose and everyone, even the fish that grew up together, start tearing into one another. The tanks also occasionally lose their "balance" if one or more of the strongest alpha males die/is removed from the tank. Far as I can tell from reading about it, it's basically when they grow up together, they set the 'pecking order' when they're young, small, and not so testosterone-filled they really hurt one another, but if the occasion arises to need to re-establish that order, they act like fish that have never met one another and go at it with full ferocity.

 

[Synirr]

...and all fish that are small will stay closer together in the wild as to help cut down predation. it isn't a sure cut way, but it does help a little.

You're thinking of shoaling fish for the most part... bettas don't hang out all buddy-buddy in the wild either, they still have separate territories, although you will often find pairs together for breeding purposes.

 

[Nevergone815]

I've heard of it being attempted several times with very poor results. The ONLY time it's succeeded has been in a very large tank or pond, when the batch has all been raised together from fry, and they still squabble quite a lot. But even in an established "raised" community, the moment an adult male is mixed into the equation, everything seems to break loose and everyone, even the fish that grew up together, start tearing into one another. The tanks also occasionally lose their "balance" if one or more of the strongest alpha males die/is removed from the tank. Far as I can tell from reading about it, it's basically when they grow up together, they set the 'pecking order' when they're young, small, and not so testosterone-filled they really hurt one another, but if the occasion arises to need to re-establish that order, they act like fish that have never met one another and go at it with full ferocity.

hmm.. interesting...

so basically if you are VERY careful, raise them from fry together and don't change the balance by adding or removing males later on it can be done. i'm still not going to try it as i'm not all that experienced in keeping bettas. it was jsut a question i was thinking of. thanks for the response, and now i know it CAN be done .

...and all fish that are small will stay closer together in the wild as to help cut down predation. it isn't a sure cut way, but it does help a little.

You're thinking of shoaling fish for the most part... bettas don't hang out all buddy-buddy in the wild either, they still have separate territories, although you will often find pairs together for breeding purposes.

yea.. ok it wasn't worded right lol. what i meant was that you won't go for miles without seeing more than one male. even with cichlids and such, they establish a "chunk" of the water as their territory and then after that chunk is up another one. like humans kind of with our lawns. we own so much property then our neighbor owns theirs, an invisible berrier if you will. hmm... something tells me i'm not wording this right either . i'm not argueing with you Synirr by no means am i. i was jsut under the impression that the territories were small enough that in say a few hundred yards of square feet you could have a ecent number of betta territories. at least how some make it seem is that you could go the hundred yards and see one male. i'm sure some situations of the really dominant ones can happen like this, but i'm sure not all. maybe i'm wrong with this, as i have no research in "wild type" or even living conditions fo those bettas in the wild. i'm relying on you guys on this one . i'm not to versed on wild types and was under the impression that you could put males and females together with other males and females. obviously it is much more complicated than that, and now i realize that .

thanks for the replies

 

[jollysue]

Actually there are several members that can have adult dicussions w/o "having a go " or "ripping others up" for just wanting to ask or discuss an idea. It is the few who ruin it for everyone. And it is not just the Betta Forum. I recently had a most unpleasant exchange in the African forum, which I just reported to William.

As far as Betta in the USA not being bred to fight, it is legal, and, if you would like to find one, I could make the connection. I frequent a cichlid shop that sells fighters to those who fight them. Several spots in the USA have SE Asian communities that actively fight fish.

[Please do not anyone assume that I attend or am involved with any fish fighting.]

 

[dwarfgourami]

The difference with tiger barbs of course is that being schooling fish, they are not fighting to get rid of their mates, but to establish a hierarchy within the group, so assuming that conditions are right (not too small a tank, not too small a group), they will go at this in a fashion that allows for a final peaceful resolution. The weaker member backs off and can still stay in the group, and there is an instinctive backing-off behaviour which others (conditions being right) respond to. Like wolves. Their survival depends on the survival of the group.
Bettas on the other hand, being territorial, do not as far I understand have the same conflict-resolving instincts. Your winning betta will go on until the other male has left his territory or is dead. So the tank would have to be very big, I imagine, quite shallow, but with loads of surface space and broken-up sight lines. His survival does in no way depend on the survival of other mates, far from it, so (to use an anthropomorphising expression) he has no interest in that.
The other problem is that bettas, with their long fins etc, are a lot more vulnerable to fighting. Less on a tiger barb to get a grip on.
I think you will find that most of the members on the betta forum are very interested in questions about betta behaviour and there is usually no trouble when questions are raised in a genuinely inquiring spirit.

 

[l.michelle]

In theory, i suppose it would work. I would love to be able to do that, could you imagine how pretty it would look?

You have me thinking to look more into it. ::

 

[lisie]

In theory, i suppose it would work. I would love to be able to do that, could you imagine how pretty it would look?

You have me thinking to look more into it. ::

Don't try it. It was just an idea, as stated by the OP, but plenty of evidence has been presented afterwards to show that it wouldn't work (unless you have especially passive males that were all raised together, but that'd entail that you find a breeder that hasn't jarred the males... and most of the time the males are jarred -because- they're showing aggression to siblings). It wouldn't look very pretty after the bettas all mauled each other.

 

[l.michelle]

I know, i haven't the resources to do it, and I know how agressive the males can be, and even though they may seem passive at first, they can change as they get older. I'm not going to try it, i was just toying the idea in my head. I think it would look pretty.

 

[Taridan]

i was jsuthtinking that females can sometimes be jsut as a ggressive as makles and we can achieve putting these together...

The only problem with this part is that, when making a sorority tank of females, most resposible owners will, if needed, remove the one female that is being overly agressive and keep her seperate, for the peace and health of the rest of the females. When I started my Sorority tank, I started with four females, and I had to remove the one due to the never ending chasing and fin nipping she was doing. The other three lived quite happily together, but the one would have made their lives miserable if I'd left her in with them. So yes, we can achieve putting them together, but a lot of if the mix works or not depends on the individual females.

 

[lisie]

I know, i haven't the resources to do it, and I know how agressive the males can be, and even though they may seem passive at first, they can change as they get older. I'm not going to try it, i was just toying the idea in my head. I think it would look pretty.

 

[pica_nuttalli]

i'd also like to point out that male show bettas are still bred for aggression, albeit indirectly.

you have to remember that a betta which won't flare is disqualified from competition. the 'best' show bettas are often the ones which flare significantly at minor stimulation and who display a good deal of traditional fiesty betta behavior. of course, not all betta breeders participate in showing and not all privately bred bettas come from show lines, but a significant number do, especially in the US and UK.

really, the only people who produce baby bettas without specifically breeding for aggression are the fish farmers. and we all know that mass-produced male bettas are generally sold in jars and rarely sold with siblings. thus, the two biggest ways of reducing male-male aggression are already eliminated from that population pool.

oh and one more thing, ANY NEWBIES WHO ARE READING THIS: DON'T PUT HOUSE MALE BETTAS WITH ANY OTHER BETTAS

(sorry, just had to make sure.)

 

[jollysue]

You may shout that one from the house tops, pn.

wuv has a thread somwhere that followed this up with significant information. I don't know where to find it, but she offered it up once when there was a discussion like this last year.