Is my water hard?

[Naughts]

It should lower the pH with several of them, given the KH, but if the pH really is still at 8 in this tank when it is only 7 in your daughter's and 7.5-7.6 in the source tap water, there is something in this tank increasing it and without knowing what that is we cannot tell how much it may lower if at all. Given the numbers we have here, the pH lowering as it does in your daughter's tank is what one would expect.

BTW, I agree with all essjay posted in post #13.

Great, Thank you.
One other difference between the tanks is that my nitrates usually read 20ppm, My daughters is often 40ppm. Maybe, as Essjay said, the more waste, the more acidic?
But I agree that doesn't explain the higher reading!

 

[Byron]

One other difference between the tanks is that my nitrates usually read 20ppm, My daughters is often 40ppm. Maybe, as Essjay said, the more waste, the more acidic?

Yes, essjay is quite correct. Organics [these accumulate from fish waste, any dead fish/plant matter, and what is naturally in the tap water (these dissolved organics in the source water can vary)] produce CO2 and ammonia as they decompose, primarily in the substrate where a host of bacteria species live, and the CO2 produces carbonic acid, and this lowers the pH unless it is being buffered by the KH. Nitrates are primarily organics so the higher the organics the higher the nitrates generally speaking. However, nitrate is detrimental to fish and should always be kept as low as possible, and never above 20 ppm. Substantial water changes regularly, not overcrowding or overfeeding, vacuuming the substrate (removing some of those organics) and keeping the filter well rinsed all work to reduce nitrates that occur within the aquarium.

Nitrate may also be present in the tap water, and that is another issue to deal with. Back in post #12 nitrates of 23.34 mg/l [= ppm] were mentioned as being in the source water according to the water authority, and in post #11 you mention testing 10 ppm in your tap water and if this is all it is, it is still an issue but less of an issue provided you keep the naturally-occurring nitrates in the aquarium very low with the above-mentioned maintenance.

The substrate you mentioned is biorb ceramic media...can you post a link to info on this?

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

Thanks for helping far better than I could. I thought at the time about mentioning that depending on other factors, his PH could change over time but while I understand essentially why it happens I wouldn't know anything about how it is measured.

One question -EVERYBODY (besides those on this forum) wants you to measure PH. I have this poster from Walmart or somewhere that shows which fish should be at each temperature and each pH - it, of course, never mentions KH and GH - can you imagine if it did. But I've also read website descriptions on fish breeder/seller websites and on a FEW of the fish they sell they will make a very big deal at not letting the pH go below 8.0 or something like that (it's usually a Cichlid of some kind), just like for Cory Cat's they say NEVER put salt in the water. I realize pH rebounds depending on KH and GH - just need some extra free hydrogen ions laying around so if somebody like myself told you that my PH was very high you would tell me to put some organic matter in my tank to brink it back up with the idea that it would ALWAYS help keep the pH stable unlike a product like PHdown - which once it's hydrogen ions are used up your pH will creep back up again until you have to add an organic product or more pHdown. I know my water takes forever to creep back up because I've got a tank that's been sitting at 6.8 - which is fine - forever - it just doesn't want to creep up again.

So - am I correct in understanding this so far? Use some organic substance to gently and safely lower pH and keep it down. PHdown is an EVIL product - or is it really - when you need to get it to 7.0 and you're at 10 (because your city water's water is crap) - how long will it take a natural substance down that far - is there anything wrong using PHdown just like most of us use water conditioners from time to time - can't we use pH down to get us close to the desired reading then toss the bottle and do it the "natural way" to keep the pH down. I needed something to bring PH down fast and there was a product on the shelf that said it would do it safely so I used it - and have been beat up about it ever since LOL. So if somebody would explain why that bottle of PHdown is so bad (other than try to avoid pouring it on your fishes heads) I'd appreciate it. I took a lot of chemistry, I used to cook a lot - we used a lot of chemical and surgical shortcuts in the lab and we take a lot of shortcuts in the kitchen (hence the creation of Hamburger Helper). I treat pHdown like Hamburger Helper - I don't expect it to keep me full FOREVER LOL.

No war here or anything I'm just trying to understand. And I know API and all these other companies are just trying to get us to buy a bottle of water labeled a certain way to -for a cost- convince us that it will make our life easier.

 

[Naughts]

Yes, essjay is quite correct. Organics [these accumulate from fish waste, any dead fish/plant matter, and what is naturally in the tap water (these dissolved organics in the source water can vary)] produce CO2 and ammonia as they decompose, primarily in the substrate where a host of bacteria species live, and the CO2 produces carbonic acid, and this lowers the pH unless it is being buffered by the KH. Nitrates are primarily organics so the higher the organics the higher the nitrates generally speaking. However, nitrate is detrimental to fish and should always be kept as low as possible, and never above 20 ppm. Substantial water changes regularly, not overcrowding or overfeeding, vacuuming the substrate (removing some of those organics) and keeping the filter well rinsed all work to reduce nitrates that occur within the aquarium.

Nitrate may also be present in the tap water, and that is another issue to deal with. Back in post #12 nitrates of 23.34 mg/l [= ppm] were mentioned as being in the source water according to the water authority, and in post #11 you mention testing 10 ppm in your tap water and if this is all it is, it is still an issue but less of an issue provided you keep the naturally-occurring nitrates in the aquarium very low with the above-mentioned maintenance.

The substrate you mentioned is biorb ceramic media...can you post a link to info on this?

https://www.swelluk.com/biorb-ceramic-media/

 

[Byron]

Thanks for helping far better than I could. I thought at the time about mentioning that depending on other factors, his PH could change over time but while I understand essentially why it happens I wouldn't know anything about how it is measured.

One question -EVERYBODY (besides those on this forum) wants you to measure PH. I have this poster from Walmart or somewhere that shows which fish should be at each temperature and each pH - it, of course, never mentions KH and GH - can you imagine if it did. But I've also read website descriptions on fish breeder/seller websites and on a FEW of the fish they sell they will make a very big deal at not letting the pH go below 8.0 or something like that (it's usually a Cichlid of some kind), just like for Cory Cat's they say NEVER put salt in the water. I realize pH rebounds depending on KH and GH - just need some extra free hydrogen ions laying around so if somebody like myself told you that my PH was very high you would tell me to put some organic matter in my tank to brink it back up with the idea that it would ALWAYS help keep the pH stable unlike a product like PHdown - which once it's hydrogen ions are used up your pH will creep back up again until you have to add an organic product or more pHdown. I know my water takes forever to creep back up because I've got a tank that's been sitting at 6.8 - which is fine - forever - it just doesn't want to creep up again.

So - am I correct in understanding this so far? Use some organic substance to gently and safely lower pH and keep it down. PHdown is an EVIL product - or is it really - when you need to get it to 7.0 and you're at 10 (because your city water's water is crap) - how long will it take a natural substance down that far - is there anything wrong using PHdown just like most of us use water conditioners from time to time - can't we use pH down to get us close to the desired reading then toss the bottle and do it the "natural way" to keep the pH down. I needed something to bring PH down fast and there was a product on the shelf that said it would do it safely so I used it - and have been beat up about it ever since LOL. So if somebody would explain why that bottle of PHdown is so bad (other than try to avoid pouring it on your fishes heads) I'd appreciate it. I took a lot of chemistry, I used to cook a lot - we used a lot of chemical and surgical shortcuts in the lab and we take a lot of shortcuts in the kitchen (hence the creation of Hamburger Helper). I treat pHdown like Hamburger Helper - I don't expect it to keep me full FOREVER LOL.

No war here or anything I'm just trying to understand. And I know API and all these other companies are just trying to get us to buy a bottle of water labeled a certain way to -for a cost- convince us that it will make our life easier.

Understand is key, so I will this time try to summarize the important points. First, we must realize that GH, KH and pH are like a unit, interconne3cted, and trying to adjust one of these will have consequences on the relationship and usually fail. Better to leave things alone, or delve into the relationship and do it safely.

Because of this relationship, and other factors that influence it, messing with the pH should never be considered if fish are in the tank. Organics can lower the pH but only if the GH and KH are themselves low, otherwise they "block" it. And fluctuating pH is far worse on fish than leaving it alone. Fish can be seriously harmed by all of this. The pH down chemicals are the same, they won't work long-term if the GH/KH works against them. And these chemicals do get inside fish and that is very serious, it will without question weaken the fish's physiology and over time this will lead to various issues that would otherwise not occur. The fish will lose, always.

The reason we still see/hear more about pH than GH/KH is because the pH has been what concerned aquarists for decades. When I had my first fish some 5 decades ago no one saw anything about GH or KH, but pH was mentioned. Even into the 1980's it was pH that concerned me, because that was what I always saw in articles. And these pH adjusting chemicals are "easy" to use and readily available; the much fewer GH/KH adjusting substances are more difficult to manage, and more expensive. And, there are a lot of misinformed people out there with websites promoting all sorts of nonsense. Only yesterday I followed a posted link to a website advising that a group of danios could be kept in a 5 gallon tank with no trouble. The mind boggles. This is a scientific hobby, and those giving advice need to know the science or they are making things worse for aquarists and the poor fish.