Is My Tank Cycled/ready Yet?

[Ruskull]

You are using the nitrate test from API, correct? That test is notoriously tricky. Shake the crap out of bottle #2, bang it on the table, etc. for the full time x2. Then shake the test tube for the full time, and don't skimp on how hard you shake it. It is a tricky test. You could be getting a false low for nitrates. You may be more cycled than you think, especially with the addition of the mature media.

Test again when you get a chance and really shake it.

Yes, it's the API Nitrate test from their master kit. I shake bottle #2 for whatever amount of time it tells you to & then I immediately add it to the test tube. Then I shake that for a full minute & wait for at least 5 minutes for the color to develop. I'll try shaking it more vigorously next time & for twice the length of time.

I think the reason for the low nitrates might be the fact that it's a fairly large tank with only 5 tiny 3/4 inch long tiger barbs, 3 medium 1.5 inch corys and 3 gouramis that are around 2-3 inches long each. Also, I did do back to back 50% water changes just a couple of days ago. I'll test again when I get home tonight.

 

[Ruskull]

Well bad news, the ammonia tested .25 ppm. I just finished a 60-70% water change and now the ammonia tests zero. No flake food tonight, that's for sure. I just threw in 2 algae wafers.

Since the water was nice & low I removed a lame looking Anubias plant & added a Gold Ribbon plant & a Wisteria. The barbs love the new Wisteria................I'm still depressed.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

It happens. Wait another day before feeding. And keep checking it.


Live plants can be a double-edged sword. If they are healthy and thriving, they will help to take ammonia out of the water. If, however, they are withering and dying, they actually put ammonia into the water.


I recommend some anacharis/elodea. These are very fast growing stem plants that can either be rooted into the substrate or just left floating. The faster they grow, the more ammonia and nitrates they will remove from the water. They are also VERY fast growing. If you get too much of them, just trim them to the size you want and either discard the excess or donate to a friend. They will grow from any portion of the stem that you have. I have some in my tank and it is amazing how fast it grows. I'm trying to figure out if I want a "forest" of it in the back, or just a little clump in the front. My fish love them (and my other plants), but my other plants are very slow growing. The anacharis I have is ridiculous in its growth. I just looked at it last night and realized how big it had gotten again, and I have a very low light tank. The leaves don't grow as big, nor as dense, but it really does grow like crazy. Another trim this weekend during the water change.

 

[Ruskull]

Funny you should mention that plant, the local Petsmart has huge bunches of it for cheap & I was tempted to get a couple. I like the fact that they grow fast, help the the chemistry of the tank & it just seems to go with the Gouramis.

UPDATE:

I tested the ammonia & it came back in between the yellow & lime, I'd guess about .15 ppm.

That's still technically below the max that will be harmful to the fish right? If it was .25 ppm I'd be doing another water change but I think I'll hold out til tomorrow. I'm gonna need another bottle of Aquasafe and that stuff isn't cheap.

Should I buy some in quantity or is there a cheaper, effective alternative? My son's tank came with a small supply of that stuff so it's all I really know........

 

[Ruskull]

Oh, and nitrites are zero, nitrates look a bit higher at around 10 ppm.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

A lot of folks around here use Prime. It is very concentrated, so you don't use much of it at a time. It lasts quite a while. It also helps deal with ammonia or nitrite spikes as well. It is good stuff. I'm glad the nitrite is still zero.

I'd do a partial water change at 0.15 ammonia. You don't need to do a big one, maybe 20-30%. Remember, ammonia is a poison to your fish. It really isn't healthy for them to be swimming in it. At 0.25ppm it becomes an emergency, but at any reading above zero it needs some steps to be taken.

 

[Ruskull]

Have you ever heard of Bio Spira or Seachem Stability? Those were recommended to me for this situation. I'll try to pick some of that up today but I wanted your opinion since you seem very knowledgeable.

Also, it looks like I'll be returning the 5 small Tiger Barbs today. I was unaware that they were so nippy & not a good match at all for the Corries. That should help keep the ammonia down shouldn't it? I plan to add another female Gourami, probably a Blue/Three Spot to give the Gold male something else to chase around. Don't worry, I won't be adding anything until my cycle is in check, that's just a plan for the future.

It's probably a good thing that my Nitrates have risen right? It would appear that at least that part of the bacteria is doing it's thing.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I have heard of both products and I can tell you that you would better off saving your money and putting that money into a quality dechlorinator to cover the cost of the water changes. These products make a lot of claims, but almost all of them are unfounded.


Yes, tiger barbs are extremely nippy and cories are push overs. Bad combo. Sorry I didn't catch that earlier. And yes, the decreased bioload will only help your cycle.


No, having no nitrates is not a good thing, in this case. It means that the nitrite processing bacteria are not doing much yet. Nitrates are not dealt with by bacteria. They build up in the tank and can only be dealt with through water changes. Nitrates aren't really dangerous though. If you are good about routine water changes, nitrates aren't an issue. In fact, during cycling seeing an increase in nitrates is a GREAT thing! Ultimately, you want to see nitrates building up, because that means that the bacteria is dealing with the waste of the fish as they need to. Nitrates are only dangerous is you let them build up to the level of 200+ppm. I just tested my tank and my nitrates are sitting around 80ppm before the water change. That's basically where it should be. After the water change it will drop down to about 60ppm, then it will build back up a bit before the next water change in a week or so. This is with 30% water changes weekly, and a monthly water change of about 50-75%, depending on my time restraints. Ultimately, unless you have extremely sensitive fish, like discus, nitrates aren't really going to cause you any problems.

Returning the barbs will help you in two ways. 1) decreased bioload. 2) decreased stress for the cories - stressed fish generate more ammonia than non-stressed fish. So, making the changes you made might drop the ammonia production by more than 50% of what it had been.

 

[Ruskull]

I have heard of both products and I can tell you that you would better off saving your money and putting that money into a quality dechlorinator to cover the cost of the water changes. These products make a lot of claims, but almost all of them are unfounded.


Yes, tiger barbs are extremely nippy and cories are push overs. Bad combo. Sorry I didn't catch that earlier. And yes, the decreased bioload will only help your cycle.


No, having no nitrates is not a good thing, in this case. It means that the nitrite processing bacteria are not doing much yet. Nitrates are not dealt with by bacteria. They build up in the tank and can only be dealt with through water changes. Nitrates aren't really dangerous though. If you are good about routine water changes, nitrates aren't an issue. In fact, during cycling seeing an increase in nitrates is a GREAT thing! Ultimately, you want to see nitrates building up, because that means that the bacteria is dealing with the waste of the fish as they need to. Nitrates are only dangerous is you let them build up to the level of 200+ppm. I just tested my tank and my nitrates are sitting around 80ppm before the water change. That's basically where it should be. After the water change it will drop down to about 60ppm, then it will build back up a bit before the next water change in a week or so. This is with 30% water changes weekly, and a monthly water change of about 50-75%, depending on my time restraints. Ultimately, unless you have extremely sensitive fish, like discus, nitrates aren't really going to cause you any problems.

Returning the barbs will help you in two ways. 1) decreased bioload. 2) decreased stress for the cories - stressed fish generate more ammonia than non-stressed fish. So, making the changes you made might drop the ammonia production by more than 50% of what it had been.

I tried to catch the little Barbs with a tiny little net I couldn't catch a single one! I bought a bigger net & I'll try again later...............

I went to a really cool fish store in Wake Forest NC called Aquarium Outfitters and they had some really nice Pearl Gouramis and German Blue Rams. Of course I didn't get any since I'd only be adding more bioload but they were pretty & I hope they're available when my tank is fully cycled.

The guy who worked there said to use the Seachem Stability, 3.5 capfuls for the size of my tank. HE SAID NOT TO CHANGE THE WATER UNLESS THE AMMONIA LEVEL REACHES .50 PPM because he said the new bacteria needs the ammonia to get itself established. He said I should see the ammonia drop & the nitrite increase or spike soon. He said to continue that dosage daily for 1 week and the tank should be cycled or close to it. He swears this is how he started up his own tank at home & he's recommended it to many others who've also had success using this method. I'm inclined to believe him because he knows I want 3 of those Pearl Gouramis for $18 & a pair of the Blue Rams for $30 and he told me to wait and use this $6 bottle for 1 week instead. Unlike the employees at Petco & Petsmart who would've said "Don't worry, you can add more fish" just to make the sale.

He also said to test the ammonia and nitrite twice a day and the nitrate once a day to monitor the changes. Does this sound right?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

it depends on what you mean by "does this sound right?". If you mean, does this sound like the same story we hear from a bunch of people who come to this forum with the sob story about their fish dying even though they did exactly what was told to them by the LFS, then yes. If you mean is this the best way to proceed, then no.


The idea that the bacteria needs levels of ammonia approaching 0.50ppm is just ludicrous! Ultimately, when the filter is completely cycled, the ammonia levels will never even register on the test kit. Are those bacteria suffering, or starving? No. Ammonia is a poison. Simply stated, it kills your fish, and exposure to the toxin will dramatically shorten their life span. So, will his plan actually "cycle" your tank in a week? I doubt it, but maybe. I've never been willing to let my current fish suffer so that I can cycle faster.


Yes, bacteria need ammonia to get established. The funny thing about that is that the fish in your tank are CONSTANTLY producing ammonia. The idea behind the water change when it registers on your test kit is merely removing the EXCESS (aka the amount above what your current bacteria is able to process). Does the bacteria benefit from having way too much ammonia available? Does that increase their reproduction rate? No. If it did, then fishless cycles wouldn't last as long as they do. In those cases the bacteria have TONS of excess ammonia to process. Furthermore, research indicates that the bacteria you are trying to process prefer nitrite concentrations of less than 0.14ppm and that if the levels get too high (off the scale of the standard test kit) the wrong type of bacteria thrive.


I don't doubt that this guy believes what he is telling you. I just don't agree that it is the best way to go. You would be sentencing your current fish to a limited lifespan. Prolonged exposure to measurable levels of ammonia will cause longterm gill damage to your fish. His product MAY in fact work the way he says. But, at what cost? If the fish die in 6 months, you just go out and buy more. But, most fish in the hobby should live 2+ years. In some cases the fish could live closer to a decade! I know that the method you are currently using seems to be the hard way, but ultimately, it is the best way that anyone has yet found. Those "too good to be true" products are just that. They aren't miracle products.

What exactly is the reason for testing ammonia and nitrite twice a day if you don't intend to do a water change unless you have double the concentration of toxin in the water than conventional fishkeeping would tell you is an emergency? If you think it is such a good idea to let your fish swim around in ammonia, then get some ammonia cleaner, stick your head over it and take a deep breath. When you finally are able to breathe deeply without pain in your lungs, you'll understand why folks on this board suggest that you do a water change whenever you get any reading for ammonia in your tank, and why the vast majority of us here suggest you complete a fishless cycle whenever possible. (BTW, I don't actually want you to do what I said regarding breathing the ammonia, because it really is awful. I did it once accidentally and it took nearly two hours before I was breathing normally again. I don't know if I caused any permanent damage to my lungs or not, but it was one of the most unpleasant things I've ever experienced.)


Ultimately the decision is yours. It is your money and your time. If you believe what the guy at the LFS is telling you over what I am saying, that is fine. I have my beliefs firmly grounded in my experience, and he has his view based on his experience. But, do remember this: I'm not going to benefit a single dollar one way or the other. I am giving my opinion based on my experience, with nothing to benefit myself in any way. You have to make the decision though. It is up to you. Keep us informed of how things are going. I'd like to find out more about Stability. I'd like to know how it would work in fishless cycle situation, rather than a fish-in cycle. What makes no sense to me is why you have to continually add a dose to the tank. Why not just add it all at once, especially if you aren't going to be changing the water? Why not just add it all and wait it out?




As far as catching the fish. Remove a bunch of water first, and use the biggest net you have - it will make it MUCH easier! Also remove as much decor as you can. It will be a little stressful for the cories, but the quicker all this happens the less stress there is over all.

 

[Ruskull]

I appreciate your explanation, and I don't question your knowledge or motive. You obviously know much more than I do, that's a given.

I was given the advice from another Fish Forum, Carolina Fish Talk & literally 5-8 people recommended SeaChem Stability by name. I didn't give that info to the LFS either, I wanted to hear his opinion first. After he mentioned his experience with Stability & mentioned Bio Spira and he said that stuff was good too but it needs to be refrigerated and it has a very short shelf life. He'd have to order it & it may or may not be available.

I didn't see your response right away so I did add a dose to the tank. The directions also said to "turn off UV/ozone" which I assumed was the light. It was their night time when I added it. Approx. 2 hours later I turned on the light & I tested the water for ammonia & it came back zero. Nitrites are also showing zero. I haven't checked the nitrates yet but I'll edit this post & add that value after I test.

I really do appreciate your input and I haven't fed any food to this tank today whatsoever. It's hard not to though, because the Barbs are so hungry they're now starting to nip the Gouramis! I don't have another tank to re locate them to either, I'm sure they won't go well with my son's stock. I'll net & return the Barbs tomorrow for sure, before their night time begins.

.......and the LFS guy didn't say that the ammonia level would get that high or that I should let it either. He just said that if it reads .25 ppm or lower it's best to skip the water change to speed up the process. He said to def. do a big water change of 50-75% if it gets to .5 ppm.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

There are those who will tell you that the reason Stability recommends continually adding it to your tank is that it is actually a chemical process and not a biological one that is taking place. The UV they are referring to is for some filters that use a UV sterilizer that is supposed to kill any bacteria that come through it. It is not a good thing to have in my opinion as that creates a sterile tank for the fish overall, and that means any fish in the tank will have virtually no immune system of their own.


Barbs are tough. They can be extremely nippy. I'd feed them for now to keep them off the Gouramis.

 

[Ruskull]

Well, I returned the Tiger Barbs today, it was kinda sad but it had to happen. My wife is still mad at me about it.............

I treated the tank with the 2nd dose about 2 hours ago and just tested the ammonia and again, it's close to zero. I wouldn't say it's as yellow as my son's tank but pretty close, probably at .1 ppm. Keep in mind that I did follow your advice last night & I fed the tank flake food to keep the Barbs from nipping the other fish. Nitrite test to follow................

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I would be very interested to hear about your experience with Stability. If it does in fact leave you with a cycled tank in the next 7 days and without any ammonia or nitrite spikes after that, great! It would be nice to be able to cite an example on this board where it actually works the way it is claimed to work. I just haven't come across a single documented case where this or any similar product does what is claimed.


If you wouldn't mind, could you post up your log of the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate etc. for as long as you've had your tank? Or, at least post what it has been for the last few days before you added the Stability and just update the log here as you go? Ultimately, it would be helpful for folks to see the actual results for themselves rather than just hearsay or anecdotes about their experience.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

BTW, I understand your wife's feelings as the Tiger barbs are extremely nice looking and have excellent personalities (aside from the nipping!). You might want to look into Five-banded barbs, which look similarly (but with an extra band across their body). These are far more docile, and almost skittish by comparison, they also don't get quite as big (up to 2 inches). If you are looking for another shoaling fish that is peaceful and a reasonable price, with a similar (yet very different) look, harlequin rasboras would be a nice choice as well. These stay a bit smaller (1.5-2 inches) than tigers (3+ inches, I say 3+ because they are much stockier bodied as well), so you'd be able actually get more of the rasboras or five banded barbs than you could of the tigers.


Five banded barbs

Link for info.

Harlequin rasboras

Link for info.