Internal parasites or bacterial infection??

[Tolak]

This is what I do for angels, you may want to look into the maximum temp your fish can handle. Metro was originally designed for humans, the closer you can get the tank to 98.6F the better. Don't forget to increase aeration, as warmer water holds less O2.

Put the angel in a quar tank, I usually use a 10 gallon. Increase the temp over a day or so to 90-94F. Treat daily with 40 mg/gallon metronidazole, with 50% water changes daily. If the fish isn't eating, don't feed for the first 3 days. After 3 days, get some frozen brine shrimp. Take a portion about the size of a few match heads, and sprinkle on some metro. You have to eyeball this one, make the shrimp look kind of like a tiny powdered donut. Once it thaws, mix it in & feed. Sometimes they still don't eat for a few days, but once they start to mouth the food & spit it out, the meds seem to get in their system real good. Continue medicating the water & food for 7-10 days.

Metronidazole is sold as flagyl, het-a-mit, and a few other names I can't recall offhand, used to treat hexamita & hole in the head. They usually suggest 20mg/gallon, this often isn't enough. Metro deteriorates in 8 hours, so you could do twice daily water changes. I've done this on the weekends when I have time.

I've also added epsom salt while using metro, this helps with any constipation issues, cleans out the digestive tract. I start with 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water, increasing by 1 teaspoon daily for 2 more days to bring it up to 3 teaspoons per gallon. You will have to adjust how much you use when doing water changes. You may want to give this a try.

HTH, & good luck!

Tolak

 

[Elisabeth83]

Hmm..I was told by the people I bought the metronidazole to treat every 3 days I'm supposed to use half dose in the tank and the rest in the food and only feed them the food the days I am treating. After 3 days treat again but do a 50% water change beforehand.

Thing is on the metronidazole bottle it says use 1 to 2 scoops per 10 gallons which is about 100mg per scoop. Then 1 scoop for a teaspoon of frozen food. The first day I treated I used 3 scoops in the tank and 1 scoop in the food. Today because it's been 3 days I did a 50% and decided to add 6 scoops of the medication to the tank. The tank is 30 gallons. I then added 1 scoop to some frozen bloodworm.

This metronidazole that I am using is by seachem and is white and mixes in the water just fine. I have no clue if I am treating right

I had to euthanize one of my platies today. It was active and eating but it was skinny and it's like stomach lining was starting to come through or something. It was orange colored. I read sometimes the parasites can do damage to the stomach lining do you think it was like wearing thin??

What is the difference between wasting disease, internal parasites and an internal bacteria infection because I am not even sure what I am dealing with here.

Here are the facts:
They are acting normal
They are eating as normal
Some are becoming quite thin
Some are still plump

Their poop well I have seen regular brown poops by some but then I see very clear stringy poop in others. I do not know if both poop clear and normal or if it's the thin ones pooping clear and the plump ones still pooping normal.

I wonder if I should move the still plump healthy looking fish to another tank or if I should leave them in the tank with the treatment??

I'm wondering if this was brought on by stress. I think I am overstocked in that tank. They have been like this for a long time though and seemed fine. I have 2 big filters running in the tank. I have 14 platies and 2 (one is only an inch she was stunted from a fry) swordtails in a 30 gallon tank. I raised 7 of the fry and love them to bits and haven't wanted to take them to my lfs. I am thinking I should move some over to an emtpy 14.5 gallon tank I have? Or is 14 platies and 2 swordtails in a 30 gallon ok with 2 big filters???

Help!!!

 

[WILDER]

That med is for hole in the head, right long stringy white poo can mean constipation,bacteria infection, or internal parasites but if they are skinny i would go with internal parasites, wasting away can also be fish tb.

 

[Elisabeth83]

That med is for hole in the head, right long stringy white poo can mean constipation,bacteria infection, or internal parasites but if they are skinny i would go with internal parasites, wasting away can also be fish tb.

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It's not only for hole in the head though. It treats internal parasites as well. The place I bought it from www.akvarielagret.se the people who work there have years of experience and know what they are talking about unlike your typical lfs and they said this is the best stuff for internal parasites and this is what they use in their shop if fish have internal parasites.

I don't know what my fish have...I'm very worried that I'm gonna lose them one by one. After reading about internal bacterial infections I am leaning more towards internal parasites as I read the most common diseases of an internal bacterial infection is pop-eye and dropsy and my fish have neither.

I thought with internal parasites though the fish usually dont eat? My eat and the skinny ones do get a rounder belly once they eat. I was told this is a good sign and they have a chance to pull through.´

 

[WILDER]

I will leave you a link to worm as livebearers are very prone to them, lavinsole i think it's called is good for internal parasites if you can get hold of it, it a pig worming tablet, internal parasites can be very hard to cure, also very prone to bacteria infections of top of parasites.
http/inkmkr.com/Fish/CamallanusTreatment/

 

[Tolak]

I've used the Seachem metro before, I still use the little scoop from the empty bottle. It is 100 mg, a 1/4 teaspoon measure is 400 mg. I've been getting it more recently from National Fish Pharmacy; http/www.fishyfarmacy.com/products2.html

I dug up a link to where I learned about kicking up the dose. It deals more with discus, many of the treatments are similar to angels. The dosage info is around 1/3 of the way down the page; http/ukdiscus.com/spironucleus.htm

Tolak

 

[Elisabeth83]

Thanks for the link Tolak! What I'm wondering is do I have to actually put the metronidazole in the water if they are eating? Cant I just put a very high dose in the food instead? I've been using it in their food and their water too.

I've been treating for a couple of weeks now but I have no idea if they are better or not Some look quite plump now and are pooping normal poop but there are still 3-5 who are still skinny and are still pooping stringy poop.

What I am wondering is how exactly do these "internal parasites" die? Should I remove the 3-5 skinny ones and treat them seperately? Are the plump ones who are pooping normal ok now? If I remove the ones I believe are still sick are the ones who I leave back in the main tank going to be ok?

How will I know when I can stop treating and the internal parasites are gone?? Will they ever be gone?

I hope someone can answer all of my questions one by one

 

[Tolak]

I go with metro in the food & water even if they are eating. How much have you been medicating them with & how often?

Towards the end when they are eating & passing normal feces I will go with just the metro in the food. In any case, I leave them in the quar tank after medicating for a good week after stopping the meds, slowly decreasing the temp to that of the tank they are going back into.


4.1.3.1 How the medication works

The normal tissues of our bodies require oxygen to survive and to function correctly

If an area occurs that is deprived of oxygen, for whatever reason, e.g. as is the case with abscessed tissues and or tumours, an anaerobic growth zone allows the development of anaerobic bacteria infections e.g. Spironucleus vortens (or facultative anaerobes e.g. the Vibrionaceae – Vibrio sp., Aeromonas sp.), and the necrotisation of soft tissue.

In anaerobic conditions, ‘the metronidazole molecule changes so as to inhibit the DNA repair enzymes that normally would repair cells. This means death for anaerobic bacteria’ but has no effect on aerobic tissues. In addition, it ‘normalises’ excessive immune reactions, especially in the gut. The specific mechanisms underpinning this function are currently being investigated (Brooks, 2002, DVM, DABVP).

It is widely accepted that metronidazole is most effective when given with food

I always treat them seperately, I have never had a whole tank come down with it, thank God.

If the fish are eating, behaving, & crapping normal for a week they should be over it. The ones who are still passing white stringy feces still need to be medicated.

This should help;

4.2 Secondary infections and stubborn cases

Evidence (Somboon & Smith, 1999) suggests that a 3 day treatment is only suitable for mild or early diagnosed cases of S. vortens and that once remission starts to occur in these cases, the immune systems continues with the recovery process. If there are ‘complicating factors’, e.g. it is not in fact an early diagnosis, damage is severe, or the treatment has been ineffectually repeated as if often the case – then the likelihood that epizootic numbers will reappear is very considerable. What’s more there is a real probability that a secondary infection may take hold e.g. competition within the anaerobic zone during non-treatment time or systemic gram-negative aerobic bacteria (during treatment or post treatment but not fully recovered). In the more severe cases, it is our preference to treat for septicaemia - as a real precaution.


I don't believe they are ever gone, just under control similar to the bacteria in a human's digestive tract. Usualy some sort of stress knocks the fish's immune system out of wack, letting the protizoans multiply unchecked;

In simple terms, in ‘healthy discus’ S. vortens is commonly found in the flagellated stage in the lumen of the upper intestine, where it remains, controlled by the immune system of the fish. In stressed discus, the immune system is placed under greater strain, and the organism, in theory, multiplies unchecked causing considerable localised damage. Once the damage is severe enough the intestinal lining is penetrated and the S. vortens enters the blood causing systemic and organ infections. In regards to stress, I have stated elsewhere (Stewart, 2001) that stressors can include: low oxygen levels, high nitrite levels, comparatively high (or low) water temperatures, rough handling, mechanical injury, overcrowding, water of inappropriate hardness etc (see Francis-Floyd, 1997; Rottmann, Francis-Floyd, Durborow, 1992 for more information on stress and its effects and management).

HTH!

Tolak

 

[Elisabeth83]

I've been medicating them with 600mg of the metronidazole every 3 days. They are in a 30 gallon. After the 3rd day I do a 50% water change. I've done this 4 times.

I also feed them frozen bloodworm or frozen brine shrimp with 100mg of the metronidazole everyday or everyother day. I've also been feeding them flake soaked in garlic. I think theres about 3 of them who are still skinny and not passing normal poop but the rest are plump again and passing normal poop. All eat happily.

I've been reading pages upon pages with info about the metronidazole. I read that you really shouldn't use it for too long with fish as it leads to kidney failure??

I think I've got to move 5-6 out of the main tank as I believe it's overstocked. What do you think? I have 14 platies and 2 swordtails in there and it's a 30 gallon. I had them living in a 28 gallon for a really long time and then I moved them around a bit so they might be stressed because of that and that's why they got the internal parasites or maybe they are stressed because theres too many of them.

Hmmph

 

[Tolak]

Double up on the metro, 400 mg per 10 gallons. Medicate daily, with daily 50% water changes. I've done this many times with angels, it works. Bump the temperature up to the low 80's, I've had platys at this temp before, they did fine.

Feed once daily, only food with metro. I would stick to only brine shrimp, they act as a laxitive, too much bloodworms can cause constipation.

I've heard metro changes dna, causes cancer, all sorts of things. One of my female breeders I treated this way over a year ago shows no signs of any of this, she got nearly 3 weeks of metro when she was young.

That is a lot of fish for that tank, I would say fully stocked, but not overstocked. Moving them around may have caused some stress. Male platys are pretty persistent about harassing the females, as long as you have at least 2 females to each male, and some plants or other decos for the females to get away from the males, the stocking should be ok, just a busy tank.

Tolak