Interbreeding Corydoras

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Byron said:
I normally restrict my activity to topics on which I have made a serious study, and species and habitats is prime.  These are sometimes ignored by beginning aquarists who view them as "scientific" and not practical, but the truth is that one will have far greater success with an aquarium if one understands the requirements and both the positive and negative aspects of every species.
I do so agree. Two of the most useful things I've ever learnt in fishkeeping are, firstly, something I picked up from a book years ago; that you can tell an awful lot about what a fish needs, in terms of water and habitat, by looking very closely at the fish, as they will all have evolved to suit a particular ecological niche. Once you can 'read' those signs, you can house and feed your fish much better.

Secondly, something I've got from the internet, in recent years, is have a good search for '(your species of fish) in the wild'. This is really useful way for you to set up the right sort of tank for your fish, and they'll be much 'happier' (as far as we can tell!) and healthier in the right environment.
 
thank you Byron for your kind words. Sadly I've been a member of other forums where asking questions and making posts were treated as a lack of intelligence. I've spent the last year being treated (and told) that I'm thick and stupid ... which I am not. It has knocked my confidence a lot.
 
I was more than a little scared to come back here but I know that in some area's I can help - especially the beginners. I was that beginner once and made mistakes that cost fish their lives - something I'm not proud of. 
 
I made this post because I wanted to learn something new - and as I've said - not hyjack someone else's thread which, to me, is rude.
 
I have learned something new and so hopefully when someone in a few months time asks about the possibility of their new cories interbreeding I can answer them accurately instead of inaccurately :)
 
Spawning fish in tanks is clearly much different that what may occur in the wild. Breeders have a trick they will use with certain fish that are stubborn about breeding that involves the natural hormones fish may exude during spawning. In the wild these are quickly diluted and any effect they can have is similarly dissipated. But in a tank the water is limited.
 
This fact has led to a trick some breeders will use to get get similar species to spawn. For example, lets say you have a tank of panda corys which are spawning on a regular basis and doing well. But in another tank you have another cory species that refuses to spawn no matter what you do in terms of dry and rainy seasons, temperature changes, TDS changes or diet. What may then be tried is that when the pandas go into spawning mode, you take the water from the panda tank which should be full of the hormones associated with spawning and you put that into the other cory tank.
 
I am aware of this technique being used with a variety of species to include plecos and angels. Of course, the fish involved must have a solid genetic relationship. There is no guarantee that this method will always works, but it is successful enough that it has been used for some time.
 
The upshot of this is when one has similar species, such as two different corys in the same tank, this effect becomes automatic. The hormone effect will happen or not based on the fish and not on us. This would make it more likely that mixing certain species  in a tank may increase the odds of them interbreeding. Think of it like a dog humping the leg of a  human, the mating urge overrides the normal process. This is one reason when one works to spawn fish intentionally that most people do it in species only tanks.
 
The above illustrates something I have come to believe over the years I have kept fish. Nature has evolved fish species over a long period to be optimally adapted to their environment. However, as much of a guideline as that might be in a tank, it is not always how things will work. A perfect example of this are plecos. They have evolved to do well in flowing water, in many cases it may be very fast flowing. The fish will expend energy just hanging on. But when we work to spawn these fish in a tank, the need for big current is not what one might think. Just because the fish can function in high current does not mean they need it. In the wild there is no option, the current is what it is. In a tank we can change that. The fish still hangs on, but it expends a lot less energy on this task which leaves more for growth and reproduction as well as for fighting off diseases or parasites.
 
As a result there are plenty of successful breeders of plecos who do not have big current in their tanks. I know an expert Hypancistrus breeder who uses sponge filters in most of the tanks.They do create some flow, but nothing like in the wild. I can personally attest to the fact that the plecos which have spawned in my tanks have done so without huge flow. Similarly, one of the most successful cory breeders in the USA says he does nothing special to get spawns. Good water, good food and patience are his main tools. He has spawned over 70 cory species.
 
Hi TTA ... yeah I knew about the hormone effect. I used to have a breeding pair of bolivian rams along with my laetacara curviceps. When curviceps spawned the rams would follow and the cories might start (although not always) ... this seemed to go in cycles and I got to reading about fish releasing hormones into the water and the effect it can have. I know the same can happen with angelfish so when (or if - at the moment they don't seem bothered) my angels spawn again I'll be watching to see what happens with the rest of the tank. 
 
I suspect my palmeri tetra have been spawning today as I saw a male following a female through the plants ... it's not set anyone else off though. I'm presuming that different fish produce different hormones which would explain why.
 
One thing I have noticed is differences in air pressure can set off the cories ... often if we've had a long period of high pressure and it suddenly drops the cories go crazy and start spawning ... now common sense says 'how do they know when they're in a fish tank' but I've seen it happen lots of times and heard other cory keepers say they've seen the same thing. I'd like to know how or why this is. I've also heard of doing water changes at a slightly cooler temp can set off cories too but it's never set mine off so that seems to be a bit hit and miss.
 
Either way ... I'm hoping that I can add to my melini numbers really soon (before they reach adult breeding size - they're still very young and hopefully too young to spawn) so that when spawning ensues they keep to their own species. I have noticed in the last week or so that they've stopped hanging out with my panda's. My panda's spend most of their time with my peppered group on the right side of the tank and the melini's spend all their time with my bronzes at the back left corner. Hopefully this is a good sign!
 
The fish are seasonal spawners and are attuned to barometric pressure changes. When pressure is high it presses down on the water and this is transmitted through the water, This is what the fish sense. The onset of the rainy season relies on two factors, the drop in barometric pressure that come with the arrival of the storms and the colder water from the snow melt in the mountains.
 
The fish will often spawn with the change in pressure because they associate this with what follows. So when we get storms we often see out fish respond. When this conincides with a water change it is often game on.
 
so they can sense the barometric pressure in a fish tank? wow clever fishes :D perhaps we need to train them to train the weather forcasters! In this country they always get it wrong lol
 
I can attest to corys especially responding to the outside weather. If a rain event is big enough headed our way e.g. a cyclone my corys without extra conditioning of live foods, or even a water change with cool water will go into spawning mode. That was also the first time my bristle noses bred, in conjunction with a major weather event, now my BN's often breed at any old time. But if I really want them to spawn again without a weather event I know I can do the major water changes and food conditioning tricks.
 
On a side note, I suspect that one reason one particular group of my BN's breed so readily without external manipulation of their environment is because they are with a heap of guppies, even though guppies are live bearers they would still be releasing breeding  and birthing hormones that the BN's would be smelling. And speaking of live bearers I have also noticed that pregnant females will often all hold and release their fry at similar times. This could be a safety in numbers adaptation i.e more fry about means one will survive to adulthood, but also it could be down to one ready female releasing birthing hormones which then triggers all the other females to follow suit because of the concentrations of hormones in the water.
 
As for hybridising of corys, while its not ideal, it cant always be helped. Although if you do end up with some hybrid spawn I would sell them privately if possible instead of going through a LFS which may or may not admit to the hybrid status. At least if you pass on hybrids to another person being honest and up front about the suspect parentage, then hopefully they too will be forth coming if they ever need to sell offspring or the original fish.
 
well my Dad has a 2ft tank that could easily take half a dozen panda cories seen as they don't get so big in size. He currently has barbs (black ruby and gold) and I wouldn't consider giving him any baby cories just yet but the good news is his barbs have reached the end of their lives (he lost another gold one at the weekend to old age) and so he'll be looking to re-stock soon.
 
There is the option to pass on any possible hybrids there and then they won't enter the trade.
 
I'm still looking to increase the Melini numbers in the hope it doesn't happen but as you say Baccus (another name I recognise from the 'old days' - great to get get re-aquainted) - it can happen and can't always be helped.
 
The other option I've considered is to increase the melini numbers to 6 and then give the melini's to my Dad and then this whole problem goes away
 
Even with inceasing the numbers of Melini, I would not be 100% certain that one in the "mood" wont illicet a spawning with a panda or visa versa. I have seen my Emerald Brochis Splendens try to get in on the spawning act with my peppered corys when the other Emeralds where not interested in breeding, which I am fairly certain didn't result in any crossbred offspring being produced.
 
The way I see it you have three options.
1. Allow the Melini and Pandas to cross bred and worry about any hybrid offspring that may eventuate when/if it happens.
2. Allow the cross breeding but dont save the eggs and let the corys eat their own eggs if they find them (this doesnt always work because I am often finding the odd tiny fry that defied the odds and survived being eaten as an egg).
3. Seperate the two groups and that way you know that both groups are breeding pure and easily salable.  And down the track you may wish to swap with your dad.
 
It really depends on what you want from your fish and tanks, do you want an interesting mixed display without concerned about breeding, just keeping a mix of species that you like. Or do you want to concetrate on breeding and keeping stocks pure.
 
And Welcome back Akasha72
 
I want my tank to be natural ... as close to wild conditions are it could possibly be in captivity. I allow it to become over grown (until it gets to the point where it starts to stress me and then I'll have a mild prune) I allow my fish to be fish ... just like I allow my dog to be a dog and not treat her like a baby or child. 
 
I don't believe it is right to take an animal from it's natural surroundings and keep it just for our pleasure. And so my tank is kept calm and wild. I keep fish together that live in a similar area I try to keep plants from the same area too. I know my fish are captive bred and know nothing of the wild area's they originate from but they still have instincts that no amount of captive breeding will take away.
 
At the moment, with the melini cories, I'm torn between giving them to my Dad and allowing what ever happens to happen. If I give them to my Dad then I'll need to find another 2 or 3 as he'll just keep the 3 as a 3 and that's not ideal for them. They need to be a 5 or a 6. 
 
I am keeping an eye on them and at the moment it's a case of 'what will be, will be' They are getting older now and looking like they might start consider breeding soon ... they're no longer baby cories and so it's a matter of time now.
 
As for being back ... well that may have been a mistake and I've only returned today to reply to you. I may well wander off again ...
 
It is "possible" though unlikely that Corydoras melini and C. panda would hybridize.  I say possible because these two species are in the same lineage species complex determined by molecular phylogeny (see Britto, 2003; Alexandrou & Taylor, 2011).  But unlikely because as we have already observed in this thread, hybridization is not documented.  Close confinement in an aquarium can force things of course, but there is still the matter of "showing interest" as opposed to actual attempts to spawn.
 
Byron.
 
thank you Byron ... I'm starting to trust in all that I read from you. You certainly know your stuff :)
 
I'll keep everything crossed that they don't interbreed ... I have a feeling they won't .. call it a gut instinct that they won't but I'm am proved wrong time and again lol
 

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