I'm ready to give up...

[sagealbright]

Hello everyone,

This is my first time posting on the site. I have been using it for a few months since I started my tank to find answers but I'm at my wits end with my aquarium and could really use some advice.

I currently have a 40 gallon tall tank. My pump/filter is a Ovation-700, an air stone, and I have Fluval Plant & Shrimp stratum as the substrate. My tank have all live plants, no plastic, 3 pieces of driftwood, and two store bought fish hide outs. My tank finished it's cycle the beginning of January and I began with 4 Cory cats as my first fish. Since I started the tank I have had a problem with the pH being high. I want south american cichlids in my tank but every time I add any, they die in 3-5 days. I've already had 4 gold rams die, an angelfish, and 2 blue rams. All were not in the tank at the same time of course. When the rams died I decided to try the angel fish instead. I currently have the 4 Cory cats, 1 angelfish, and 4 Mystery Snails. I use the Tetra Easy Strips to test my water. pH levels have stayed at 8.4 no matter what I have done to bring them down. They will come down for a day and then shoot back up to 8.4. The water is also up around 300 KH alkaline. Originally someone at my local aquarium supply store told me to try Seachem Acid Buffer. He told me to put it directly into the tank. My fish were eating it when I would put it in so I stopped using it, I figured it probably wasn't good for them to eat... Then another employee at the same store told me to use distilled water since the pH and KH in my tap water is extremely high. I did about two 10 gallon water changes in two weeks with the distilled water and still had no luck. Then yesterday I went back out to my local aquarium store again and the man that I talked to told me that distilled water should never go in my tank. He said to use the Seachem acid buffer but to mix it with the new water in a bucket until I get my desired pH, then add it to the aquarium. I tried that last night with about a 15% water change and the pH did come down, but then this morning it was back up between 7.8-8.4. I have been using Seachem Prime whenever I add new water. Along with Seachem Flourish and API CO2 Booster for my plants as directed on the package. Also, I do not have the funds to produce RO water right now... so that is out of the question.

On top of all this my plants are dying. The man at the aquarium store that I talked to yesterday said it is because of my light. A different employee from the same store told me that I could use the 24in Finnex Planted Plus for my 36in tank. He told me that with how bright it was my plants would have plenty of light. Now, I am getting algae build up on some of my plants and they are turning brown. One of my swords actually fell apart yesterday and all the leaves were floating in the tank. The only plants in my tank that are being affected by this are the ones in the middles of the tank, which are directly under the light. Because of this the man I talked to yesterday said this is happening because my light it too intense. He was trying to get me to buy a $300 Current light instead. I'm not sure whether to believe him or not. He could have just been trying to make a sale. Either way, I need to figure out what is going on in my tank that is making my plants die.

If anyone could please help me out with this pH issue along with my plant problem I would REALLY appreciate it. I have invested hundreds of dollars in this already and do not want to throw in the towel, but I fear that I will if I can't keep any south american cichlids or plants alive. That was the only reason I started an aquarium to begin with.

 

[sagealbright]

Here are a few photos of some of the plants in case that helps at all.

 

[Byron]

Welcome to TFF. I know exactly how it seems when there is failing without end. But there is always a solution that we need to find. From your post, there are two distinct issues that I can explain. The first is the pH problem, the second is the plant lighting.

The pH is tied to the GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity). The latter two, especially the KH, will determine the pH. You cannot alter the pH without dealing with the underlying GH and KH.

The GH is the level of dissolved minerals in the water, and primarily calcium and magnesium. Water is an incredible solvent, meaning that it easily assimilates substances with which it comes into contact, such as minerals in rock. The KH is the measure of carbonate and bicarbonate ions; carbonates and bicarbonates are the salts of carbonic acid. It is sometimes referred to as Alkalinity. The KH acts as a buffer, to maintain the same pH, or put another way, to prevent it from fluctuating. You mention a KH of 300 (I suspect the unit of measurement is mg/l or ppm) and this is quite high, which means the buffering capacity of the water is high. This is why attempts to lower the pH will not be permanent; the addition of acid initially lowers the pH, but the buffering capability returns it to where it was, or close, depending upon the KH and the acid added. This is very risky as fish cannot tolerate huge rapid swings in pH.

You don't mention GH but I will assume it too is fairly high. The only way to get the pH down is by reducing the GH and KH together, and the safest way to do this is by diluting the water with some form of "pure" water. RO (reverse osmosis) works, and distilled water would work too; on its own these are not good for many fish, which is what the store person was referencing, but when used to dilute the initial hard water it is not going to be a problem for fish. You can also use rainwater, if you can collect it properly. I won't go into all that, but move on with the chemistry.

Using pure water to dilute the hard tap water is proportional. IF you mix half and half, the initial GH/KH will be reduced by half, and so forth. The pH will lower, perhaps not by much, and it may take a large mix of pure water to less tap water to make a significant result.

I'm not going to detail processes as this would get very involved initially. It would help to know the GH as well as KH of the tap water. The KH I take is 300 ppm (or mg/l, same level). You should be able to ascertain both GH and KH from your municipal water authority, check their website.

Final note on pH. In all aquaria, as the biological system establishes, organics occur and are broken down by various bacteria, primarily in the substrate. These are different bacteria from those than deal with nitrification (ammonia to nitrite to nitrate). As this occurs, CO2 is produced, and this produces carbonic acid. As this increases, the pH lowers relatively. However, the higher the GH/KH, the more "buffering" capacity and the less the effect of the organics. So if you do lower the GH/KH sufficiently, the pH will naturally lower accordingly. This is a very simplistic explanation, but it should get the idea through.

The plant issue is probably the light. Tank lighting has to be of sufficient intensity to drive photosynthesis. If it is, then all the nutrients required by plants must be available. With the additives you are using, plus the high GH (the minerals calcium and magnesium primarily), there should be no issue with nutrients, so I would suspect the light is the issue here. In addition to intensity, the spectrum is also important. Aquatic plants need red and blue light to drive photosynthesis, and red is the more important. Green light does help, for reasons I will leave or this really will get involved. If you could post some data on your present light, one of us might be able to diagnose something. I know next to nothing about LED, I am still using T8 fluorescent tubes and CFL bulbs which I understand and they work in my situation.

Byron.

 

[flchamp89]

Never chase a ph number. It will always revert back. As byron said gh is a little more important in terms of fauna and how flora reacts too macros and micros.

A 24 in light on a 36in tank typically will not work well. You have multiple issues with plants. I see diatoms, low light issues, and melting. How about a fts?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

 

[StevenF]

First thing I would suggest is not going to the asking for advise. It sounds like half the people in the store know what they are talking about.


The second thing i would do is to find out what the PH, GH, KH, and nitrate values are for your tap water. If you do a google. search on line you should be able to find a water quality report on line from your local water utility. If you do post a link to it so that all of us can evaluate it.

We also need to know the same information for your tank water. If you cannot find a water quality report You can buy water test kits that will quickly tell you what the numbers are. The Aquarium store should have these and you might even find them at the local hardware stores. I personally use tetra 6 in 1 test strips for monitoring my water. They will fest for nitrate, nitrite, GH, total Chlorine, KH, and PH. Many here say they are not accurate but I have checked there sults using various methods and found that all result generate close to the same results.

You should also have an ammonia test kit. The tetra 6 in 1 test strips don't test for that. Tetra does make ammonia test strips but I am not recommending those. If you already have a test kit tell use which one you have.

As to water changes you should do at least a 30% water change once per week. Many people actually do 50% once per week. Anything less than 30% is probably not going to keep mineral levels stable. Are you using SeaChem Flourish

Comprehensive or some other sachem flourish product? If you do a 50% water change add 1.66ml of flourish comprehensive.

As for right now I would recommend stopping the use of the CO2 booster for now. With the air stone in your tank and problems with plants you don't currently need it. furthermore some plants are damaged or killed by liquid CO2 booster. In the future you can restart CO2 booster if it was not the cause of the problem.

What type of light do you have bulb type and number of bulbs or brand. I have been experimenting with lighting in my aquarium (my light can put out 3000 lumens and is disable from 1% to 100%). I cannot kill plants with bright light and I have not been able to kill algae or plants with low light levels. So at present I doubt your light is the cause of the problem.

Algae growth and plants dying are classic symptoms of a nutrient efficiency. Other than light and CO2 plant need about 14 minerals to grow. If just one of those is lacking plants may die, and algae may take over. If you are using Sachem Flourish comprehensive it should be supplying those 14.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_nutrition

 

[sagealbright]

Thank you everyone for such detailed responses! Hopefully I cover everything you have asked in this post. I don't know much about my light other than it is a Finnex Planted+. Their website does not give much information but I will post a screenshot of what I could find. I'm still VERY new to all this!

I was using the tetra 6 in 1 easy strips to test my water but ran out on Saturday so I bought the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite are all very low and where they did to be. They have been stable in my tank for about a month now. My pH has been measuring between 7.4-7.8 since Saturday. So it has come down considerably. Hopefully this is due to my gradually trying to rig it down. The API kit definitely gave me much more precise results are compared to the Tetra strips. Those I found hard to read with pH since all colors above 7.0 look very similar. My GH is measuring between 75-150ppm and my KH is between 120-180. I used the Tetra strips to measure them since my API kit doesn't have tests for GH or KH. I'll have to get new strips to test those again. When I tested the tap water my pH was 8.4. KH and GH were both 300ppm.

This morning my angelfish was near death. He was barreling in circles like a torpedo trying to swim and then sunk to the bottom. I thought at first it was the pH swing but it seemed to come down pretty gradually over the past few days.

 

[Byron]

I will leave the chemistry for Steven as he has a better understanding. Except to say, what do you mean by "all very low" for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? Ammonia and nitrite must be zero, always, or there is a problem. Nitrate can be low, under 20 ppm. Ammonia or nitrite above zero may be a factor in the angelfish issue.

But it is more likely to be the pH fluctuations. As I explained previously, using chemicals to lower pH cause serious fluctuations, and the pH lowers rapidly, then over 12-24 hours goes back up due to the buffering. This is seriously stressful at the very least, and can cause internal issues that may not be seen until the fish is near death, as the angelfish seems to be. Please, never use any chemicals or additives to adjust chemistry without knowing the whole picture.

Byron.

 

[StevenF]

I'll have to get new strips to test those again. When I tested the tap water my pH was 8.4. KH and GH were both 300ppm.

Your water is hard. Unfortunately angle fish are primarily a soft water fish. I don't know if they can tolerate water that hard. It may be a factor in his poor health at the moment. byron may have a better idea on this.

7.0 look very similar. My GH is measuring between 75-150ppm and my KH is between 120-180.

Your tank parameter have come down quite a lot from the tap readings. I believe this is likely due to plants consuming calcium, magnesium, and potassium. High nutrient intake by plants can cause PH changes and PH buffers are not going to help that. Please measure the aquarium PH just before the lights turn on. And if possible include GH and KH. and then right before the lights turn off. If possible also test several times between lights on and lights off. How long do you leave the lights on.

You say you have a 40 gallon tall tank. Can you supply the approximate height, width, and depth of the tank? Right now I don't see anything bad about the lighting you have. I Still don't know which Flourish fertilizer you have.