I have no good title for this.

[Rusty_Shackleford51 167]

I came across this wonderful article about Dr. Mark Penning amd his keynote address at the 2026 AVMA convention.

The gorilla who learned to hand over her baby, the king cobra examined without restraint, the tiger paid in goat milk: 2026 AVMA Convention keynote shows what earning animals' trust makes possible | dvm360 https://share.google/eTAN0QKdeDzH4R22J

This article led me into the 5 Domains.

5 Domains Model.pdf https://share.google/AoZg71sXgEKpjzBUv

This gets me thinking about how we can apply these principles to our fish, if we're not already.

 

[GaryE12 10]

Let's look at he 5 freedoms in that document. How can we address them?

1. Freedom from thirst, hunger and malnutrition(by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour)

Okay. Research and choosing appropriate foods for how our fish have evolved. Water changes on a regular basis, something many aquarists still debate. Working to gain a basic understanding of biology.

2. Freedom from thermal and physical discomfort (by providing appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area)
A difficult one, as it necessitates massive reductions in how we stock tanks. Far fewer fish, but larger single species groups for shoalers.

3. Freedom from pain, injury and disease (by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment)

Another difficult one, as it would require training. The hobby approached this in its past forms, as many aquarists were really good on diseases as they were understood. That may be the biggest change I've seen in my 60 years of fishkeeping. We have unlearned.
Now, as the complexity of the issue has become obvious, we've dropped the past knowledge and have run for the hills. It's all the cycle and API test kits, right? We no longer sit and study what fish diseases are. Bacterial infections, parasites, viruses - the general knowledge among hobbyists has dropped radically.
As well, we have the factory farm model of fish production and distribution. That works against disease control and fish health.

4. Freedom from fear and distress (by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal’s own kind)
5. Freedom to express normal behaviour (by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering)

I see 4 and 5 as interlinked. They imply the elimination of 'monster fishkeeping' (large fish in small tanks), an increase in tank size and an increase in our willingness to work at our hobby.

Ultimately, the fishkeeper needs to change. We have to reject convenience as a guiding principle. We have to recognize that we need to adapt to their needs, and not the other way around. We need to look at the evolution of fish, and what it teaches us, while looking at the diversity of species. Can we do that?

I doubt that very much.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford51 167]

Let's look at he 5 freedoms in that document. How can we address them?

1. Freedom from thirst, hunger and malnutrition(by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour)

Okay. Research and choosing appropriate foods for how our fish have evolved. Water changes on a regular basis, something many aquarists still debate. Working to gain a basic understanding of biology.

2. Freedom from thermal and physical discomfort (by providing appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area)
A difficult one, as it necessitates massive reductions in how we stock tanks. Far fewer fish, but larger single species groups for shoalers.

3. Freedom from pain, injury and disease (by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment)

Another difficult one, as it would require training. The hobby approached this in its past forms, as many aquarists were really good on diseases as they were understood. That may be the biggest change I've seen in my 60 years of fishkeeping. We have unlearned.
Now, as the complexity of the issue has become obvious, we've dropped the past knowledge and have run for the hills. It's all the cycle and API test kits, right? We no longer sit and study what fish diseases are. Bacterial infections, parasites, viruses - the general knowledge among hobbyists has dropped radically.
As well, we have the factory farm model of fish production and distribution. That works against disease control and fish health.

4. Freedom from fear and distress (by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal’s own kind)
5. Freedom to express normal behaviour (by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering)

I see 4 and 5 as interlinked. They imply the elimination of 'monster fishkeeping' (large fish in small tanks), an increase in tank size and an increase in our willingness to work at our hobby.

Ultimately, the fishkeeper needs to change. We have to reject convenience as a guiding principle. We have to recognize that we need to adapt to their needs, and not the other way around. We need to look at the evolution of fish, and what it teaches us, while looking at the diversity of species. Can we do that?

I doubt that very much.

It starts with the pet/aquarium industry.
Look at this photo, is this realistic? Count the number of angelfish, gouramis, and other fish in this tank. It looks like a 75 gal. to me. The industry is setting up false expectations and the potential for failure from the word go.

 

[GaryE12 10]

It's also setting up for success, first and foremost. The question is, whose success?

You and I as experienced aquarists would like to see an ethical nature based hobby, but investors would like to see returns on their investments.

 

[OldFishKeeper]

It starts with the pet/aquarium industry.
Look at this photo, is this realistic? Count the number of angelfish, gouramis, and other fish in this tank. It looks like a 75 gal. to me. The industry is setting up false expectations and the potential for failure from the word go.
View attachment 383417

Gee...beautiful tank, full of fish and no visible filters or heater. What could go wrong? That doesn't do much to educate new hobbiests!

 

[anewbie]

It starts with the pet/aquarium industry.
Look at this photo, is this realistic? Count the number of angelfish, gouramis, and other fish in this tank. It looks like a 75 gal. to me. The industry is setting up false expectations and the potential for failure from the word go.
View attachment 383417

All i can say is i'm thinking of setting up a 400 gallon box for 6 to 8 altum. You do what works for you - if it works to keep 8 angels and 12 gourami in a 75 great! If it works to keep 6 to 8 altum in a 400 great ! there is no right answer.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford51 167]

All i can say is i'm thinking of setting up a 400 gallon box for 6 to 8 altum. You do what works for you - if it works to keep 8 angels and 12 gourami in a 75 great! If it works to keep 6 to 8 altum in a 400 great ! there is no right answer.

So if I plop an Oscar in a 15 gal. tank, you're cool with it?

 

[Rusty_Shackleford51 167]

That's been a problem for a long long time in the hobby. The "do whatever with your fish" attitude. Treating a living thing as a commodity. This is exactly why we are in the midst of another mass extinction event. The rainforest viewed as a commodity, the seas viewed as a commodity. Instead of a resource to be managed. What happens when your altums disappear from the wild?
I suppose you'll only care then. Too late.

 

[anewbie]

So if I plop an Oscar in a 15 gal. tank, you're cool with it?

If you can take proper care of it and bend the law of pysics so a foot long fish can live in a foot long aquarium with ample swimming space - but in truth it is your problem just don't tell me about it if it turns out wrong.

People do lots worse than put an oscar in a 15 gallon aquarium - lots worse so if i'm going to worry or complain about all the bad things people do like abuse kids and slaughter the helpless then i think those have priority over your oscar.... sorry.

 

[GaryE12 10]

It's easy to get judgmental, but 8 altums in a 400 gallon seems reasonable to me. If it's properly set up, it could work very well and meet all the criteria in the article you linked to.

So few people will do it though.

There is the question of whether we should keep fish at all. Why do we do it? I know for me, learning about fish is really important. They have fascinated me all my life. But that is a self centred decision, and my learning about fish goes nowhere. Just a thought...

The Oscar in a 15 debate is endless. I had a a rescue dog who had spent 5 years of her life in a 5x8 cement floored kennel, and had scars on her legs from the ridges in the cement. That could be done. Yes sir, it was and she stayed alive.

Those five points - most of us live in societies where we don't even apply them to our fellow humans. That's another debate, disallowed by our rules about human politics.

 

[anewbie]

That's been a problem for a long long time in the hobby. The "do whatever with your fish" attitude. Treating a living thing as a commodity. This is exactly why we are in the midst of another mass extinction event. The rainforest viewed as a commodity, the seas viewed as a commodity. Instead of a resource to be managed. What happens when your altums disappear from the wild?
I suppose you'll only care then. Too late.

We are in the midst of mass extinction event because people are stupid, greedy and selfish with a capital on SELFISH.

But the same stupid idiots are the ones electing some of the stupidist, greedist assholes in history as leader of their country.


We've known for close to 50 years that things were going to get very bad and have done NOTHING and you are worried about the damn oscar in a 15.

While i suppose the fishes don't 'deserve' to go extint humans do.

 

[GaryE12 10]

@anewbie would you not accept the argument that how we relate to nature and other animals may well be connected to how we relate to each other? You seem to have a compartmentalized, black and white approach there.

I've been politically active working for change, been threatened and on one or two occasions injured, spent countless hours doing unpaid work in the poor part of town I come from and yet, I still care about oscars in 15s. I still care about proper housing for fish and for people. Is there supposed to be a contradiction there?

 

[anewbie]

@anewbie would you not accept the argument that how we relate to nature and other animals may well be connected to how we relate to each other? You seem to have a compartmentalized, black and white approach there.

Not sure - one day i watched some 15 year old brat break a wild sea gull wing and was very gleeful at having accomplished the task (this was with a group of people after leaving a parade). I can't say a thing about that person other than he was an asshole for what he did - but the problem is the vast majority of people seem to be assholes - as for the oscar in the 15 gallon - i suspect 90% of the people who get a 15 and a nice 1/2 inch or 1 inch oscar have no clue what they are doing or how large an oscar gets. The just see a pretty fish that is small. We could talk about common pleco and red tail cat fishes.

On the bright side these people aren't going to the amazon and getting these fishes - most of them are farm raised and i view it no different then the farm raised cattle that gets slaughtered daily - i try to not think about it but just accept that it is the way it is and think there are worse things going on that if one is going to expand energy on they should be addressed first.

Having said this - the oscar example is most likely due to naive-ness then it is due to out right brutality like the brat who broke the seagull wing.

In the end we can just hope people go extinct before the animals and then they can live in peace without all the assholes around them.

But in the end everyone and everything will eventually go extinct so we can look forward to that future. As for locality of things people are stupid and people are assholes and i guess i'm more forgiving of teh stupid then the asshole.

 

[gwand51 168]

I’m an optimist. I believe that science will save us and the animal kingdom before we have total catastrophe. The Book of Revelations is 2000 years old. No apocalypse yet.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford51 167]

8 altums in a 400 sound way better than 8 angels and 12 gourami in a 75.
I have no doubt that anewbie will pull it off with tremendous success.
The point is the marketing image doesn't match reality. How does that help anyone? The person walking into petsmart thinks they can put those fish all together in a 75 because that what the picture shows. It might work, it may fail horribly. But wouldn't it be more realistic to show 2 or 3 angels and a couple of gourami?
Remember the old saying, perception becomes reality?