I Am Killing My Fish & On The Point Of Giving Up!

[gforce17]

Here here Steph! Daughter lives in Allestree. Love Derby.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

NEXT SATURDAY How about right NOW? With nitrites at 5 your fish are being poisoned. Do a 90% change ASAP. Then check the levels. You really need your own test kit.

They seemed alittle alarmed at the fact we'd done a 20% water change yesterday & a mini one today as well giving us dire warnings of leaching the bacteria out of the tank. I really haven't helped matters by swilling the filter under the tap which apparently is a massive no-no. I feel really foolish about all of this & certainly wish I'd done things differently from the beginning but you live & learn.
I ran the tank fishless but with a substance in to help build bacteria called Aquacycle but that clearly wasn't sufficient.

Hello and welcome!

Please take all I am about to "say" in the manner it is intended.


First, do the massive water changes that are being advised. Large water changes are the only way to keep your current fish alive. Ammonia or nitrite levels above 0.25ppm are extremely dangerous. A nitrite reading of 5ppm needs to be dealt with immediately. And unfortunately, only doing a 90% change isn't sufficient. That will drop the level to 0.50ppm, which is still more than twice the value that is considered dangerous! Do another 90% immediately afterwards. That's the only way to make the water safe.


Second, ignore what the folks at the LFS are telling you. The water changes you have been doing are actually NOT ENOUGH, rather than a problem. "Dire warnings of leaching the bacteria out of the tank" - The bacteria you need are found almost exclusively in the filter, with the tiniest percentage living on other surfaces inside the tank - the amount in the water isn't even worth mentioning!

Third, you are correct that rinsing the filter in the tap water has been a bad move. There is nothing you can do about this now, but moving forward, don't do that! A gentle swoosh in some old tank water will be more than sufficient. If you want to use "clean" water, just dechlorinate the water first. Truthfully though, you don't need to rinse the filter at all for about 2-4 months at this stage. Let the bacteria settle in and mature. If you do anything, just a gentle swoosh or two is more than sufficient for now.


Fourth, the "aquacycle" product you used is one of many products that claim that they can "instantly" cycle a tank by adding the appropriate bacteria to the tank. Most around here don't have ANY faith in these products. But, even if it did work, having it in an empty tank wouldn't do anything but kill the bacteria, because the bacteria need a source of ammonia to feed on.


Finally, don't worry about what has occurred. There is nothing that you can do to change that now. You are not alone in having this type of experience. Many of the members here started in a very similar situation to you. The thing that separates you from many of the folks who start like this and give up is that you came looking for answers. We can help you through this. It will be a large number of water changes and a fair amount of time, but you will get there.


From here, cut your feeding to the main part of the tank down to every 3 days. They don't really need as much food as we give them. Continue to feed the fry daily, as they need it to grow, the adult fish don't need it. Do 75% water changes (after the extra 90% recommended above) until you have a test kit to confirm that you can safely get away with smaller ones. You really do need the kit, contrary to the advice you were given at the LFS. Once you have the kit, you need to test daily for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. If you see a color besides zero for ammonia or nitrite, do a water change immediately. Do as large a change as necessary to drop the level down to about 0.10ppm or lower. (Why so low? Because 0.25ppm is dangerous, and the level will start to rise again immediately, so lowering it only to 0.25ppm isn't really worth much! Keeping it around 0.10ppm or lower, will give your fish time in safe water before they need another change.) Generally, large changes aren't much more work than a smaller one. You can safely lower the level of the tank to the point that the fish can just barely swim upright - just be sure to refill with temp-matched, dechlorinated water.


A little reference for why large changes are better:

Let's assume you have 1ppm ammonia. Doing a 50% water change will only drop the level to 0.50ppm - which is still too high. So, you'd have to do another 50% immediately. That lowers it to 0.25ppm, which is still too high. So, another immediate 50% change drops the level to 0.125ppm. You could leave it here.

That same 1ppm ammonia could easily be dealt with a single 90% change. That lowers the concentration to 0.10ppm. This will involve moving about half the water for a better result for the fish. You'd use less dechlorinator, the fish would be in the proper conditions sooner and you wouldn't have to temp match THREE different times!



BTW, if you have a chance, get a dechlorinator like Prime. Prime is highly concentrated, so you don't need to use nearly as much for the same result as other dechlorinators. Plus, it detoxifies ammonia (by converting it to the less toxic form of ammonium), so that if you find that you can't do a water change immediately, just adding some to the tank would be better than doing nothing at all in the meantime.

 

[Baltipal]

Many thanks for all the advice, we feel we're on the right track now at last! I don't think we'll be giving up after all.
I will be going to get my second reading later on today & we will be doing another 90% change right after, we couldn't do it before because of a couple of boring domestic reasons but the tank looks much cleaner & the remaining occupants much happier.
Before we travel any further down this road though can I ask what the abbreviation 'ppm' stands for? I'd feel really silly leaving it until we'd been doing this a while & might as well ask when still considered a 'noob', I have done a search both on here & on google but couldn't find an answer just alot of details & readings, a case of not seeing the wood for the trees!
Unfortunately the API Master test kit will have to wait till next pay day but water changes are the order for each day for a while I think & we'll have to lean heavily on this free water test service from the LFS till then which given the season will mean today & tomorrow only I'm afraid but as I get them I'll give them to you for your comments & advice if you kindly condescend to continue to do so.
As always many, many thanks.

 

[fluttermoth]

PPM = Parts per million. You might also see 'mg/l' (milligrams per litre) being mentioned, which is the same

 

[This Old Spouse]

Baltipal, we're not "condescending" to give you more advice. It's what we live for!

 

[eaglesaquarium]

TOS is correct, it is not a condescension, it is that we all remember being "noobs" once too. Without the advice from members here many of us would have been in the exact same place as you, or others of us were in the exact same spot as you before finding this place.

 

[Ruskull]

What worked best for me was getting established media from my son's tank as well as some from the local PetCo. I asked the manager foir an old filter insert, which was huge, and he put it into a plastic bag with some water. When you get it home, cut the nasty looking part into strips that you can roll loosely and insert into the open spaces in your filter. Don't bother using any of the carbon since it's only good for a week or two anyway. Then you can discard the rest of the filter. It worked for me & shortened the time to cycle to about a week or two rather than the usual months it takes without donor media.

 

[This Old Spouse]

Once I had my first tank established, this is how I started all my other tanks. I now have extra media in all the filters, so when I have to quickly start up a Q tank or fry tank, I can do it immediately with no fear.

 

[Ruskull]

Once I had my first tank established, this is how I started all my other tanks. I now have extra media in all the filters, so when I have to quickly start up a Q tank or fry tank, I can do it immediately with no fear.

That's exactly how I started up my 10 gallon fry tank. I used an old cruddy filter from my son's 20 gallon tank. It usually works best on new tanks that are smaller than the donor tank, from my experience anyway.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

It can work on larger tanks as well, the stocking just needs to start slowly, or you would want to finish the process in a fishless cycle style with ammonia additions daily to grow the colony to the size you need.

 

[Baltipal]

I know you're not condescending , you are all wonderful people that have saved my aquarium & you'll have my thanks forever!
Right, here are today's reading;

NH3 0mg/p

NO2 5 + mg/p

NO3 10 mg/p

PH 7.2

O2 6 mg/p

Now, the way they are expressed isn't down to me but how the bloke at P@H put it down on the paper. As I understand it the ammonia is down to zero, the nitrites at 5.0, the nitrates at 10 & the PH remains at 7.2. He also gave me a reading for oxygen I'm not at all sure why it's important.
Given the above will a another 90% water change still necessary as the staff at the LFS were HORRIFIED at me doing the last one.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Nitrite at that level is LETHAL! Nitrite works to deprive fish of oxygen similar to carbon monoxide for people, as I understand it.

If you could go to higher than 90%, that would be far more preferable. A 90% drop won't actually bring it down to a safe level. You would need to do at least 95% or more to get it down to 0.25ppm. Ultimately, if that isn't possible, do a 90% change - by removing 90% of the water. Then fill it up to about 25%-50% and lower the level back down as far as possible again, then refill as usual. This will bring the level back to under 0.25ppm with the minimal effort and use of water.


The folks at P@H horrified! Let them be horrified, their advice horrifies me.

 

[Akasha72]

hmm tough one to be honest. The nitrite still needs to come down but at least your showing 0 for ammonia. If it was me I'd still change some water to bring the nitrite down but not as much. I'd do about 50% but someone else may suggest you do more.

Give it a bit of time for another opinion

EA beat me to it ... he's got more experience than me so go with his advice

 

[Ruskull]

hmm tough one to be honest. The nitrite still needs to come down but at least your showing 0 for ammonia. If it was me I'd still change some water to bring the nitrite down but not as much. I'd do about 50% but someone else may suggest you do more.

Give it a bit of time for another opinion

EA beat me to it ... he's got more experience than me so go with his advice

+1 to Eaglesaquarium's advice. He knows his stuff. Next time you're at the local fish store ask for that established media!!! That could save you loads of time & water changes, and it will stress the fish less.

 

[Baltipal]

hmm tough one to be honest. The nitrite still needs to come down but at least your showing 0 for ammonia. If it was me I'd still change some water to bring the nitrite down but not as much. I'd do about 50% but someone else may suggest you do more.

Give it a bit of time for another opinion

EA beat me to it ... he's got more experience than me so go with his advice

+1 to Eaglesaquarium's advice. He knows his stuff. Next time you're at the local fish store ask for that established media!!! That could save you loads of time & water changes, and it will stress the fish less.

Thanks both, I think I'll do one more big one then start doing may be a 50% or 30%, see what others say. The fish seem much better on what's in the tank now but not taking anything for granted.
Akash I did ask about mature media but he seemed to think that was a bad idea because some sort of toxic shock or something, the PH values being different in separate areas, I may have got that bit wrong but it's academic as they didn't do that sort of thing anyway.