Hypancistrus Zebra

[Paradise3]

My partner may be getting a group of between 10-20 Hypancistrus Zebra and he's said that because males are so territorial if he get's more than 1 male he's going to sell the extra's and just keep 1 male and all the females and he's going to try breeding them. I've been reading through breeding reports on Planet Catfish and seen that some people have kept them in things like 21" long tanks and bred them in groups of things like 2 males, 3 females. My partners tank is the Juwel Rio 300 and he's worried about keeping more than 1 male in there because PFK says you can't. Also I have a 30"x12"x15"(LxWxH) tank that's not going to have anything else in it but my 3 Hyalobagrus Flavus and my 5 Poecilia Reticulata. I was wondering if a male and 2-3 female Zebra's would be OK for life? If not then I'll just have 1 on it's own. Apparently to breed you need a group of 8 minimum(1 male, 7 females) because any less than this and the male will kill the females because they are so aggressive. My partner is being a little harsh about this, he says that yes if he get's more than 1 male from his group then I can have one of the males for my tank for free(Which I know is very generous!) so I said
"Would you be nice enough to let me have 2-3 females if you get yours to breed? I'd like to try my hand at it and it would be very helpful for you because I'd be able to buy my train tickets down here."
Just dropping a few hints and he went
"No. You can have a male but you need groups of 8 to breed and your tank isn't big enough for 8. Your tank technically isn't big enough for 1 because they are so territorial, they need a 36"x18"x18" to keep even a single one."

I know my tank isn't big enough for 8 but even after reading the breeding reports on here I've found you don't need a big groups and you can keep 2 males together 

 

I'm confused! Can someone help me here? I know that even after everyone answers and I can show him this exact thread he'll still say "Well they got lucky because PFK says they are highly territorial and males will kill females if there's less than 7 of them." I just want answers for my piece of mind 

 

[JenCliBee]

That's absolute tosh lol..... you can have a male and female and still breed, the odds are just better with a ratio of 1:3..... obviously the more you home in a single tank, the more space each individual fish is going to require..... a Rio 300 could easily sustain a group of 10... however i would advise against more than 2 males.... as mentioned, they can be territorial and can cause substantial damage to one another and even death.
 
There is however a few more aspects to think about. I presume your partner will be buying young fish.... likely to be 1 inch 6-12 months old?..... these wont be sexable for a long time, probably another 2 years to be completely sure of what you have, then you may have another 2-4 years on top of that for them to reach maturity and breed..... zebs don't really breed untill 4+ years old and even then it's far from a guaranteed affair.
 
Housing 1 on it's own in a competitive food orientated tank can lead to issues.... i'm not to sure how aggressive your shadow cats are at food times but if the zeb/s feels uncomfortable he/she basically wont fight for food and obviously this can lead to starvation, the other factor is temperature, the zebs will require low to mid 80's for them to thrive and to breed, there isn't many fish which will tolerate temps this high permanently without some sort of life shortening or stress issues.
 
All i would say on the matter regarding breeding is, don't get to hung up on breeding, they may never breed at all, the young can be very hard to raise to a sellable size for a well established, experienced keepers so can be very tricky for somebody just starting out with them. There clutch size is often tiny, with an average of probably 5-10 and that will probably have less than a 50% hatch rate and then the raising begins.
 
I would never put anybody off buying zebs, they are truly beautiful fish and the fish which originally started my interest in the hobby but i would always say to people, buy the fish like you would any other, a pet.... if they breed and you raise the fry, it's a bonus but never rely on them to breed and certainly don't expect them to make you much money, if any at all 

.

 

[Paradise3]

That's absolute tosh lol..... you can have a male and female and still breed, the odds are just better with a ratio of 1:3..... obviously the more you home in a single tank, the more space each individual fish is going to require..... a Rio 300 could easily sustain a group of 10... however i would advise against more than 2 males.... as mentioned, they can be territorial and can cause substantial damage to one another and even death.
 
There is however a few more aspects to think about. I presume your partner will be buying young fish.... likely to be 1 inch 6-12 months old?..... these wont be sexable for a long time, probably another 2 years to be completely sure of what you have, then you may have another 2-4 years on top of that for them to reach maturity and breed..... zebs don't really breed untill 4+ years old and even then it's far from a guaranteed affair.
 
Housing 1 on it's own in a competitive food orientated tank can lead to issues.... i'm not to sure how aggressive your shadow cats are at food times but if the zeb/s feels uncomfortable he/she basically wont fight for food and obviously this can lead to starvation, the other factor is temperature, the zebs will require low to mid 80's for them to thrive and to breed, there isn't many fish which will tolerate temps this high permanently without some sort of life shortening or stress issues.
 
All i would say on the matter regarding breeding is, don't get to hung up on breeding, they may never breed at all, the young can be very hard to raise to a sellable size for a well established, experienced keepers so can be very tricky for somebody just starting out with them. There clutch size is often tiny, with an average of probably 5-10 and that will probably have less than a 50% hatch rate and then the raising begins.
 
I would never put anybody off buying zebs, they are truly beautiful fish and the fish which originally started my interest in the hobby but i would always say to people, buy the fish like you would any other, a pet.... if they breed and you raise the fry, it's a bonus but never rely on them to breed and certainly don't expect them to make you much money, if any at all 

.

 
Oh obviously I've not got 100% hopes, I'd just like to try my hand at it after I got the Shadow Cats to spawn(no babies but they laid eggs) which has apparently never been recorded in captivity The Shadow Cats are timid at feeding times, they feed but very slowly. That's why I thought they'd be OK with the Zebs. The guppies are quite calm feeders for guppies lol. It's just my partner seems to think that my tank is really too small for 1 male let alone a male and 2-3 females I've been asking on PC too but I've not had a definite answer. I can provide a separate tank if the male doesn't get on with the females or vice versa and I have a planted tank with a sort of rocky front scape. Smooth pebbles and stuff.
 
What do you think?

 

[JenCliBee]

Ive already wrote this once and then my laptop froze grrrr.... so here goes again lol
 
Ive had a quick look at the conditions of the shadows and it seems they prefer a much slower flow and cooler temps, the complete opposite to zebs where they will thrive in low to mid 80's and require nice fast flowing water which is very oxygenated. The guppies also would suffer in them sort of temps long term... the stress factor of the other fish is something that would concern me greatly, stress can bring a whole lot of issues and diseases which in a normal tank wouldn't be nice but in a tank filled with very expensive plecs is even worse.
 
But.....  back to the zebs and tank, your 30x15x12 tank could easily house 4 zebs aslong as there is sufficient hiding places and sufficient territory for each fish, although you would only really need 1m-2f.
 
I also personally wouldn't house the other fish with them and keep it either a species own tank or add a couple of fish which match the conditions, sterbai cory's are a good choice, ive had them both together and they have very successfully cohabited and often where seen eating together out in the open.

 

[Paradise3]

Ive already wrote this once and then my laptop froze grrrr.... so here goes again lol
 
Ive had a quick look at the conditions of the shadows and it seems they prefer a much slower flow and cooler temps, the complete opposite to zebs where they will thrive in low to mid 80's and require nice fast flowing water which is very oxygenated. The guppies also would suffer in them sort of temps long term... the stress factor of the other fish is something that would concern me greatly, stress can bring a whole lot of issues and diseases which in a normal tank wouldn't be nice but in a tank filled with very expensive plecs is even worse.
 
But.....  back to the zebs and tank, your 30x15x12 tank could easily house 4 zebs aslong as there is sufficient hiding places and sufficient territory for each fish, although you would only really need 1m-2f.
 
I also personally wouldn't house the other fish with them and keep it either a species own tank or add a couple of fish which match the conditions, sterbai cory's are a good choice, ive had them both together and they have very successfully cohabited and often where seen eating together out in the open.

 
The Shadow Cats and Guppies are in 28c water with fast flow already. It's the water the Shadow Cats laid eggs in, 28c and a very fast flow that hits all parts of the tank.

 

[JenCliBee]

That's a very high temp for guppies, prolonged high temps for fish that shouldn't be in them can be very detrimental, stress levels are also high and as you probably know, stress leads to diseases.
 
Can i just mention aswell (i'm trying to put this nicely without dashing dreams or getting you worried so please don't take it the wrong way lol)..... catfish can lay eggs without any intention of an actual success rate of them surviving, ive observed this in plec and cory tanks of just females many times. The other aspect is fish can/will/sometimes and ive observed this with cory's and had conversations with other regarding this... that they will lay eggs as a last resort to keep the population and to ensure numbers continue just before they die or know they are unwell.
 
So just because your shadows have laid eggs, it could be for various reasons, the female may have just though the conditions were wrong so released them etc.
 
 
As to the adding zebs, i wont advise here or there with info given sorry, i don't think the tank is ideal (well tank mates more than anything), tank size i would consider fine and as long as the substrate is a fine grained something which isn't sharp, then that's fine to, caves etc etc..... i would just be concerned with the fish aspect side and the incapabilities

 
Whichever you decide, i wish you all the best with them, they are certainly stunning fish

.

 

[Paradise3]

That's a very high temp for guppies, prolonged high temps for fish that shouldn't be in them can be very detrimental, stress levels are also high and as you probably know, stress leads to diseases.
 
Can i just mention aswell (i'm trying to put this nicely without dashing dreams or getting you worried so please don't take it the wrong way lol)..... catfish can lay eggs without any intention of an actual success rate of them surviving, ive observed this in plec and cory tanks of just females many times. The other aspect is fish can/will/sometimes and ive observed this with cory's and had conversations with other regarding this... that they will lay eggs as a last resort to keep the population and to ensure numbers continue just before they die or know they are unwell.
 
So just because your shadows have laid eggs, it could be for various reasons, the female may have just though the conditions were wrong so released them etc.
 
 
As to the adding zebs, i wont advise here or there with info given sorry, i don't think the tank is ideal (well tank mates more than anything), tank size i would consider fine and as long as the substrate is a fine grained something which isn't sharp, then that's fine to, caves etc etc..... i would just be concerned with the fish aspect side and the incapabilities

 
Whichever you decide, i wish you all the best with them, they are certainly stunning fish

.

 
When I say they spawned I mean there is a male and 2 females, they spawned in the tank when I had the at 28c and the females were happily producing eggs a lot. I've moved them as I had to sell the 3ft tank and the water in my 2.5ft is at 25c and neither of the females has been carrying eggs or anything. They've actually been more unhappy in the lower temps than in the higher temps. Also, I've never had a problem with guppies in 28c... Always kept them like that. It's what they are raised in round here. They are raised at 28c. The guppies are currently at my partners in his krib tank which is at 28c and there's been no problems. I mean obviously, I am happy to move the guppies on if I have to but the Shadow Cat's I'd really rather not with how long it took me to get them. I've seen reports of people keeping Shadow cats at higher temps and in fast flowing water like I do and I've seen people keeping Zebs at lower temps and slower water(which I will not be doing) so as far as I can see the higher temps are not needed for the zebra's. Looks like I'll not be breeding them though as I can't find them locally and my partner is insistent on only letting me have the male as he will apparently kill the females.

 

[JenCliBee]

When I say they spawned I mean there is a male and 2 females, they spawned in the tank when I had the at 28c and the females were happily producing eggs a lot. I've moved them as I had to sell the 3ft tank and the water in my 2.5ft is at 25c and neither of the females has been carrying eggs or anything. They've actually been more unhappy in the lower temps than in the higher temps. Also, I've never had a problem with guppies in 28c... Always kept them like that. It's what they are raised in round here. They are raised at 28c. The guppies are currently at my partners in his krib tank which is at 28c and there's been no problems. I mean obviously, I am happy to move the guppies on if I have to but the Shadow Cat's I'd really rather not with how long it took me to get them. I've seen reports of people keeping Shadow cats at higher temps and in fast flowing water like I do and I've seen people keeping Zebs at lower temps and slower water(which I will not be doing) so as far as I can see the higher temps are not needed for the zebra's. Looks like I'll not be breeding them though as I can't find them locally and my partner is insistent on only letting me have the male as he will apparently kill the females.

 
May i ask why the eggs never hatched or fry haven't survived?.... also why you think there unhappy now in the lower temps?..... if it's the fact that they aren't spawning, then this isn't a reason to why you think they are unhappy..... my experience with catfish is that just because they aren't breeding, doesn't mean there unhappy.... infact the zebs are a perfect example, there will be many keepers/breeders that will say they have had one or two spawns from there group and then nothing for many years.... nothings change and conditions are exactly the same and ideal.
 
The guppies being fine in high temps is quite a bold statement, local bred means nothing in regards to natural temps the body can handle, tank conditions yes, TDS, PH etc but primilary temp is sustainable and there are many papers which lead to the belief that undesired conditions can drastically shorten a fishes life with no initial signs of stress to the fish..... sooo..... i'm always sceptical when somebody says there fish are fine in conditions unsuited because unless them fish are actually talking to you, we have no real idea to how they 'could' be suffering or feeling 

.
 
Now to the zebs, your logic isn't actually correct, there will always be people keeping them in a lower temp than whats ideal, i could keep them in 23/24c and them still stay 'alive' but it's not a temp in which they will thrive in... so yes zeb temps do need to be this high for them to be fully compatible and to ensure they thrive... at the end of the day, keeping fish in boxes isn't natural so keeping all other aspects to that particular fish becomes even more important. The same will go for the reports of the shadow cats being kept in fast flowing high temp waters, doesn't mean it's ideal, it just means that there are reports of this happening... your now one of these reports

.
 
At the end of the day, it's your tanks and your money spent, 'we' as a whole can only advise from our experiences and experiences of others we know who have kept said fish (your asking the for the advise)..... if you chose to take this advise, then it's upto you but the advise is sound and considered correct in the zeb world i assure you... not just me saying it, if you google zeb conditions etc etc and have a look at most of the setups that come up from dedicated keepers, they will be in the region of whats being advised.
 
As i said, whatever you chose, good luck

 

[Paradise3]

When I say they spawned I mean there is a male and 2 females, they spawned in the tank when I had the at 28c and the females were happily producing eggs a lot. I've moved them as I had to sell the 3ft tank and the water in my 2.5ft is at 25c and neither of the females has been carrying eggs or anything. They've actually been more unhappy in the lower temps than in the higher temps. Also, I've never had a problem with guppies in 28c... Always kept them like that. It's what they are raised in round here. They are raised at 28c. The guppies are currently at my partners in his krib tank which is at 28c and there's been no problems. I mean obviously, I am happy to move the guppies on if I have to but the Shadow Cat's I'd really rather not with how long it took me to get them. I've seen reports of people keeping Shadow cats at higher temps and in fast flowing water like I do and I've seen people keeping Zebs at lower temps and slower water(which I will not be doing) so as far as I can see the higher temps are not needed for the zebra's. Looks like I'll not be breeding them though as I can't find them locally and my partner is insistent on only letting me have the male as he will apparently kill the females.

 
May i ask why the eggs never hatched or fry haven't survived?.... also why you think there unhappy now in the lower temps?..... if it's the fact that they aren't spawning, then this isn't a reason to why you think they are unhappy..... my experience with catfish is that just because they aren't breeding, doesn't mean there unhappy.... infact the zebs are a perfect example, there will be many keepers/breeders that will say they have had one or two spawns from there group and then nothing for many years.... nothings change and conditions are exactly the same and ideal.
 
The guppies being fine in high temps is quite a bold statement, local bred means nothing in regards to natural temps the body can handle, tank conditions yes, TDS, PH etc but primilary temp is sustainable and there are many papers which lead to the belief that undesired conditions can drastically shorten a fishes life with no initial signs of stress to the fish..... sooo..... i'm always sceptical when somebody says there fish are fine in conditions unsuited because unless them fish are actually talking to you, we have no real idea to how they 'could' be suffering or feeling 

.
 
Now to the zebs, your logic isn't actually correct, there will always be people keeping them in a lower temp than whats ideal, i could keep them in 23/24c and them still stay 'alive' but it's not a temp in which they will thrive in... so yes zeb temps do need to be this high for them to be fully compatible and to ensure they thrive... at the end of the day, keeping fish in boxes isn't natural so keeping all other aspects to that particular fish becomes even more important. The same will go for the reports of the shadow cats being kept in fast flowing high temp waters, doesn't mean it's ideal, it just means that there are reports of this happening... your now one of these reports

.
 
At the end of the day, it's your tanks and your money spent, 'we' as a whole can only advise from our experiences and experiences of others we know who have kept said fish (your asking the for the advise)..... if you chose to take this advise, then it's upto you but the advise is sound and considered correct in the zeb world i assure you... not just me saying it, if you google zeb conditions etc etc and have a look at most of the setups that come up from dedicated keepers, they will be in the region of whats being advised.
 
As i said, whatever you chose, good luck

 
It's not just that they aren't spawning. They aren't as active, they don't seem to interact with the other fish as much, they've become solitary which they weren't before. I've actually noticed that the male has stopped eating altogether in the lower temps. I did ask the same on PC and I've had one person tell me the same as you and when I told them how the shadow cats have been they said oh maybe they'll be OK then. I'll not be spending money on the male, I'll be getting him for free from my partner. The only money that would be spent is if I choose(manage!) to buy any females to try breeding as my partner has insisted it's not the tank conditions... It's the fact that he still insists that you need more than 2 females. In fact, my partner is keeping his group at a lower temp than me and in with Angels, Emperor Tetra's, Brochis Splendens, a Pair of Kribs and currently a Polypterus Delhezi till she get's her new tank. And although we've not seen him for a while, if Pinky the not-so-black BGK is in there then they'll be kept with that too. At least none of my fish can eat mine

I do get what you're saying but who's is the worst set-up here? The one they'll be purposefully bred in or the one where it may just be 1 male alone?

 

[JenCliBee]

Wow!!!!! That is a stocking list just waiting for trouble.... i'm gobsmacked and that don't happen to often lol.

 

[Paradise3]

Wow!!!!! That is a stocking list just waiting for trouble.... i'm gobsmacked and that don't happen to often lol.

 
To be fair, the Angels, Brochis and Emperors are OK. It's the BGK and the Polypterus if he doesn't get her a new tank quick enough

 

[JenCliBee]

Wow!!!!! That is a stocking list just waiting for trouble.... i'm gobsmacked and that don't happen to often lol.

 
To be fair, the Angels, Brochis and Emperors are OK. It's the BGK and the Polypterus if he doesn't get her a new tank quick enough

 
 
Not really, angels are really aggressive eaters and can be very skitty, these will likely cause the zebs to not feed... as they just wont compete for food, the other 2 are not suited to the high temperatures required on a permanent basis.... the stocking from start to finish is terrible.... no polite way to put it i'm afraid.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If you want to breed zebras, you pretty much have to do so in a species tank. You will need be be doing dry and rainy seasons and most of the other fish wont be all that happy about it. And angels would just love zebra fry for lunch.
 
If you put 1 male in with 7 females you will likely never get eggs/wigglers to free swimming. You may also lose some females. And all it takes to get a spawn is one male and one female. If you want to keep a spawning colony then shoot for about a 2m/3f mix.
 
When I had my group of 12-13 spawning I usually had two males going regularly and on one occassion had three spawns at one time. They will start and stop and sometimes that stop is for some time. My last spawn was Nov. 2010.

 

[Paradise3]

If you want to breed zebras, you pretty much have to do so in a species tank. You will need be be doing dry and rainy seasons and most of the other fish wont be all that happy about it. And angels would just love zebra fry for lunch.
 
If you put 1 male in with 7 females you will likely never get eggs/wigglers to free swimming. You may also lose some females. And all it takes to get a spawn is one male and one female. If you want to keep a spawning colony then shoot for about a 2m/3f mix.
 
When I had my group of 12-13 spawning I usually had two males going regularly and on one occassion had three spawns at one time. They will start and stop and sometimes that stop is for some time. My last spawn was Nov. 2010.

 
Looks like I'll just be going for 1 male on his own then...