How To Get The Ammonia Out Of Florabase Before Using?

Ps3Steveo

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As the title says guys, I have a 35 which I'm swapping sand for florabase in as I'm rescaping. The problem is it has a population of about 200 Cherry Shrimp in and I don't want the ammonia to kill them, it has a mature internal but I don't think it will be enough, I thought about soaking it for a few days? What you think?
 
Soaking and daily water changes will eventually rid but i would imagine it taking a couple of weeks to fully eradicate. Have you thought of other substrates?.... what colour flora base was you planning?
 
I already have a load of brown but like the 60 will have 100% plant coverage anyway so colour doesn't bother me tbh. Well I'll soak it from now till I fill it then just do the daily water changes I think, hopefully the shrimp will be ok. Plus they'll be a good tester before the Badis go in.
 
I already have a load of brown but like the 60 will have 100% plant coverage anyway so colour doesn't bother me tbh. Well I'll soak it from now till I fill it then just do the daily water changes I think, hopefully the shrimp will be ok. Plus they'll be a good tester before the Badis go in.


Ah right, just thought you could potentially consider other options, ie cat litter?... hence the colour question it's a nice red/brown colour just like florabase but all it needs is a good rinse and it's done... no ammonia problems, very similar colour and has good cec abilities... oh and not to mention.. very very cheap :good:... but if you already have florabase then you may aswell use it ;).
 
I'm not sure many will agree on this but i kept CRS in a tank with florabase without any deaths from day 1. With a 50% water change a day, i didn't have any problems. I have also don't it with the tank i'm running now. It has had Cherries in from the start, and nil deaths. Florabase is also a complete substrate, so doesn't really compare to Cat litter. Florabase contains the lot N,P and trace. It also has a high CEC. IME it remains to be one of the best planted substrates next to ADA stuff.

have you lot seen the price of the new stuff on the market??
Elos TerraBlack

http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/elos.html

apparently made in the same factory as Florabase...
 
Florabase is also a complete substrate, so doesn't really compare to Cat litter. Florabase contains the lot N,P and trace. It also has a high CEC. IME it remains to be one of the best planted substrates next to ADA stuff.

have you lot seen the price of the new stuff on the market??
Elos TerraBlack

http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/elos.html

apparently made in the same factory as Florabase...


Can you elaborate on this mate, many times ive seen you comment (correctly i might add)... that plants take and prefer to take nutrients through there leaves ie the water column and usually will only take nutrients from the substrate if needed or are lacking by not dosing, basically a backup for short comings if dosing is either missed or generally not done.

Well in this case why do you think that florabase would be a far better substrate than cat litter?.... i can pack nutrients under the cat litter to equate to what florabase can give and still be considerably cheaper... they both have good cec abilities which cancels out one being better than the other and many things ive read about about florabase leads to it running out of nutrients within 6 months if none are added to the tank through dosing, this would be the same as me packing out the cat litter with nutrients and not dosing... the cat litter would probably last just as long.

So again...i can get everything that florabase can offer but with it being a much cheaper option, granted i would have to add nutrients before adding to the tank but... most people that have these type of planted tanks would have the ferts to hand anyways and even if they didn't the cat litter would absorb any surplus nutrients anyways..again just like florabase would.


Ive always wondered why people get so hooked on a substrate, an expensive one at that when the options for the same thing can be made but far cheaper and with not much effort.
 
The nutrients contained in the substrate will leach into the water column, the plants in turn will supply the plants with everything needed, so nothing will be lacking. The soils with also lower Ph, which makes it easier for C02 absorption. In the tanks i have set up, there has been now comparison to the planted soils to the high Cec. I know some of this is personal preference, but i have also used Manado a few times now and it only has high CEC, it contains no active ingredients. I noticed this when setting up tanks. Just by minor algae outbreaks, plants lacking. Touch wood, i have never had this problem with Florabase. I also know that other scapers feel the same. I phoned Mark Evans the other day, and we talked about planted substrates, he also feels the same. He won't go back to using inert substrates after using the ADA systems.

As for recharging the soils, this makes for a good read

http://www.aquascapingworld.com/forum/aquascaping-world-magazine-discussions/292-how-mineralize-soil-substrates.html

I know i quote Tom Barr a lot, but there isn't many people who actually use a systematic approach to planted tanks and i sometimes don't agree with everything he says, but as i say he uses proper evidence. However, he with talk about his ADA amazonia that has lasted 5 years.

There was another thread, which i actually started on UKAPS regarding the dosing techniques of Amano

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=17315

again, i have had a discussion with Mark, and also George and they are both dosing really lean at present and seeing great results. The substrates have been soils.

I know i prefer to have something from the set up that has high amount of nutrients from the get go. I know EI provides this, but we still see massive fails with just EI. It would be good to set 2 tanks up, one with planted soils and a cat litter, the EI them both and see how things work out.
 
The nutrients contained in the substrate will leach into the water column, the plants in turn will supply the plants with everything needed, so nothing will be lacking. The soils with also lower Ph, which makes it easier for C02 absorption. In the tanks i have set up, there has been now comparison to the planted soils to the high Cec. I know some of this is personal preference, but i have also used Manado a few times now and it only has high CEC, it contains no active ingredients. I noticed this when setting up tanks. Just by minor algae outbreaks, plants lacking. Touch wood, i have never had this problem with Florabase. I also know that other scapers feel the same. I phoned Mark Evans the other day, and we talked about planted substrates, he also feels the same. He won't go back to using inert substrates after using the ADA systems.

As for recharging the soils, this makes for a good read

http://www.aquascapingworld.com/forum/aquascaping-world-magazine-discussions/292-how-mineralize-soil-substrates.html

I know i quote Tom Barr a lot, but there isn't many people who actually use a systematic approach to planted tanks and i sometimes don't agree with everything he says, but as i say he uses proper evidence. However, he with talk about his ADA amazonia that has lasted 5 years.

There was another thread, which i actually started on UKAPS regarding the dosing techniques of Amano

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=17315

again, i have had a discussion with Mark, and also George and they are both dosing really lean at present and seeing great results. The substrates have been soils.

I know i prefer to have something from the set up that has high amount of nutrients from the get go. I know EI provides this, but we still see massive fails with just EI. It would be good to set 2 tanks up, one with planted soils and a cat litter, the EI them both and see how things work out.


I will have a look at the links later mate and will also apologise to Steve for hijacking the thread lol.


However, yes i agree the nutrients will leach into the water... but by adding the nutrients yourself to say cat litter or any substrate that has good cec.. it will give you the exact same process. Granted you have to add the nutrients your self initially but tbh it ain't really hard to spread a little bit of stuff under a substrate. This will avoid any lacking from the offset just as your florbase will.

I do see how people have preferences and i guess im the same with using none branded stuff etc etc but to be fair i can do what 'most' other substrates claim by adding a bit more attention beforehand but for a much cheaper price.

It would be nice to have a comparison, 1 with cat litter, 1 with something like florabase. I honestly dont think there would be much differcne tbh, if any.

Not to take anything away from mark or George but they aren't really plant growers to a degree... they are aquascapers and there tanks really anrt given chance to mature and see what end results substrates can do over a long period of time.. simply because they get it to a point and then strip and restart. It would be nice to see what they can do long term with the substrates they use in comparison to.. lets say 'home made' stuff.

I guess if your in a position to need to lower PH then a viable substrate may actually be plausible... i dont have that problem... again though with most they have a wood source so that will also do the same to certain degree. I really get lost in all the gh/kh/ph malarkey tbh so i do what i do and not worry about any of that. The only time that comes into play with me is when i want it low for plecs... ive never actually been concerned with plants :/ .

I was just curious to why you come to that conclusion, i guess each to there own with many aspects of fish keeping not just the planted side. What works for one can be a complete disaster for the next and vice versa.

Thanks for the links though, will have a good read :)
 
I can see your point, and i have some Florabase i might send you to try in your nano and i reckon, you'd change your mind ;) I also see what you're saying about George and Mark, but what you have to see in their tanks is how the plants flourish from day 1, and personally i don't think they'd do 'as well' (obviously they'd still do well), without planted soils. I have been lucky enough to see a few of Marks in reality and they do really look impressive, thats also from a plant growth and plant health point of view.

As you are aware Jake, the further you get into this hobby, the evidence is mainly on preferences and who's done what (i'm not a great believer in this approach, as in my work, i'm tought to go for the systematic approach). Also this side of the hobby is split in to 'the aquascaper' and the 'plant grower' and there still isn't that much to go on regarding who knows best.

It'd be good to get some othr points of view of the inert vs CEC vs planted soils??

ps, it's good to have debates like this IMO.
 
I can see your point, and i have some Florabase i might send you to try in your nano and i reckon, you'd change your mind ;) I also see what you're saying about George and Mark, but what you have to see in their tanks is how the plants flourish from day 1, and personally i don't think they'd do 'as well' (obviously they'd still do well), without planted soils. I have been lucky enough to see a few of Marks in reality and they do really look impressive, thats also from a plant growth and plant health point of view.

As you are aware Jake, the further you get into this hobby, the evidence is mainly on preferences and who's done what (i'm not a great believer in this approach, as in my work, i'm tought to go for the systematic approach). Also this side of the hobby is split in to 'the aquascaper' and the 'plant grower' and there still isn't that much to go on regarding who knows best.

It'd be good to get some othr points of view of the inert vs CEC vs planted soils??

ps, it's good to have debates like this IMO.


Maybe?.... i still think a well nutrient packed substrate like cat litter can be would give just as good results but without a full on experiment it's hard to actually justify any claims. I'm a firm believer that things done right can be done equally as well as it's more expensive counterpart.... backing it up is a much harder thing to do though :/ .

Maybe when i move i will have that little extra space to try an experiemnt out. Would certainly be worth a bash :).

No one can argue, Marks tanks are stunning.... everytime i look in awe of how healthy they look, same goes with George... But..... tbh fair they do seem to have unlimited amount of resources to do what's needed... top grade ferts.. coupled with top rated substrates and evidently excess amount of co2. I honestly think it's more to do with them balancing it spot on rather than equipment used though... really just from an observation point, they are very talented and nothing can take that away. Never met either nor seen there systems in real life (would love to and maybe one day :)).

Agreed, there is so many different approaches made by so many different people, it's hard to actually find a conclusive answer to whats the best approach. I guess like anything in life, you take things as guidelines and then find your own way and then decide what works best for you.

Would be nice to hear other peoples opinions on the matter.

Totally agree on the debate side, you learn so much from other peoples experiences and opinions and as i mentioned they can always be a guidance tool for your own venture :good:
 
IME I always get better plant growth with a good CEC soil. However I still get good growth in fully inert sand/gravel. It's just the difference between thinking it's looking lush and actually looking lush.

A little like thinking your water is crystal clear, then putting Purigen in and realising it wasn't :)

I use Tropica basically because I am tight and I bought it 5 years ago. I reuse it each time. Tropica has no nutrient in it but has high CEC so it draws nutrient in.

I have used Kitty Litter before and it worked fine but not as good as with the Tropica. Am currently use it in my little 8 litre (can't really take any observations from a tank that small, plus I tend to neglect it a lot.) I only used kitty litter in that one because I wasn't going to pay anything for the content of that little tank and I had a bag of kitty litter around. I did top it with gravel though because it breaks down very easily.

From what I remember (I think I read somewhere but can't remember) that kitty litter does have high CECE but nowhere near the decent soils and miles behind humic soils. this would go along with my observations really that kitty litter is better than totally inert but short of the expensive soils.

This is why I put a thin layer of Leonardite underneath my substrates. Read it on Barrreport and seems to work a treat :)

Saying all of the baove many people use plain old sand and dose the water column religiously and are very happy with the results. Don't know if they have used aquasoil or one of the other variants from other brands to compare with so it may be a case of the 'purigen' comment above.

If Florabase is made at the same place as Oliver Knott's then it is rebagged 'contra-soil'. This is the Japanese brand name. Then they bag it up for different clients :) Most of what you get is made by this company or one of the others in the region. And of course if they sold Contra-Soil without being rebagged over here it would be circa £14 a bag. lol. But they don't more's the pity.

On the Ops question similar to Ian I just set up a scape. don't worry about anything, plant it up and in with the fish/shrimp. Although I would advise to follow Ian's instructions above r.e. daily water changes for a couple of weeks I don't :) I just start up a scape, plant it heavy and then immediately continue as if it had been up and running ages. Cherry Shrimp are hardier than most fish IME :) Very hard to kill off. They even survive without acclimitising if you just transfer from one tank to another. Not really a good indicator of whether your fish would survive IMO.

My summary o the above. I use the Tropica because I have it. If I needed to replace it yearly then I would probably just go inert rather than use kitty litter. Makes a mess when you have thrashing Corys and non stop fiddling m,as colonies of shrimp. lol. No science behind it for me though. I don't spend ADA nor Florabase money on substrates. That money is better in my pocket or buying fish/plants/baby clothes. lol. So I am with FishyJake on this one :) I think just using a little Leonardite for the stupendous CEC may well be the key in my tank rather than the Tropica.

Why do these high CEC have this 'negligble' better growth? I think it may be more a case of stabilising the levels rather than anything else. The pulling out of the water any 'spikes' the plants don't use and then releasing for the plants when there are troughs.

On the 'spent' time part. If you don't dose and rely on the substrate then you saved on the fertiliser so it levels out really (assuming you buy the fertiliser rather than DIY) If you do dose religiously it should continue for eons (I would've thought.)

On the lean dosing part. A lot of people 'unknowingly' lean dose. If you use TPN+ or Flourish then you are lean dosing. Would take a lot of the stuff to go EI levels :) I've used PMDD+PO4 lean dosing before. Worked a treat howeverI like to use EI because DIY ferts are cheap and it removes any worries. Lean dosing can leave you defficient sometimes when you are a lazy pruner such as I :)

Andy
 
Wow that was short, lol I appreciate the replies guys, I'll throw it in and just get on with my usual new tank routines.

Thanks
 

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