How Much Flashing Is Normal

[dazbud]

Last year I noticed occasional stringy white poo, no body marks or visible bacteria/fungus, but the fish were itching and rubbing off rocks a lot. The first time it happened, I tried all kinds of meds, and then eventually Waterlife Sterazin seemed to do the trick.
 
A few months ago (after introducing new fish again), it started again. I did Sterazin straight away since it had previosul;y worked. Two full courses later, no effect. I also tried Esha 2000 and Fluke Solve. Some of the fish got fin rot, I think this was because of the rapid succession of meds. A couple died. I used Interpet Fin Rot med with very quick success on the fin rot. Once, I'd got over that, I tried a course of Kusuri Wormer Plus for the itching again and it seemed to do the job.
 
That was about a month ago. This week, I've noticed some scratching again. Its very occasional and not always the same fish.
 
I actually don't know now whether I'm just trying to cure something which is normal or whether any amount of flashing is an altert to something being wrong. Aside from the flashing, fish behaviour is normal. No further stringy poor. All are eating and swimming normal. Most of my fish have company of their own kind and interact normally.
 
I have 250L tank. 
Live plants.
Two airstones.
Trickle filter running 900L/hr with an additional twin powerhead (900 L/Hr) operating 15mins/hour.
assorted media, including bio balls, ceramic noodles, sponges and filter floss
45 assorted community fish: Tetras, Barbs, Apistos, Krib, Rainbows, bristlenose.
Water stats are Amonia 0, Nitrite 0, PH 6.8, Nitrate 10-20
I change out 60L per week, declorinated with Seachem Prime. this is about 24% of my water.
Temperature is 24.5C.
I recently upgraded the heater to an Eheim Jager for tank temp stability and my room does fluctuate.
daily fluctuation is no more than 0.5C
I vary the food daily between flake, micropellet, brine, frozen, blanched pea. Feed is once a day
 
I have wondered whether I overfeed. The Nitrate levels do not peak above 20ppm and I don't get that much crud from syphoning the gravel. But my filter pads in the overhead trickle filter need rinsing weekly and get realy dense with dirt.
 
Is some amount of flicking normal? If not, then what could be causing this recurring problem?
 
 
 
 
 

 

[PrairieSunflower]

Some can be itching... such as if there are miniscule particles in the water irritating the fish... or if you did a water change that wasn't a close match it can sometimes give a couple hours of occasional flashing.  Constant or regular flashing is not normal, however.
 
My helpfulness stops there though, I am terribly at figuring out "why is my fish flashing" when it isn't ich.  Sorry.

 

[NeonBlueLeon]

I second the itching.  My guppies flash very occasionally, and everything else about them is healthy.  I freaked out and did a few hours of research after I witnessed one of my girls do it.  I never saw her do it again after that.
 
If there are no other symptoms of illness and the flashing is occasional, then it may be itching.

 

[snazy]

Flashing can also be caused by irritants in the water, like contaminants, trace/undetectable ammonia levels, etc.. Most diseases, unless you already bought an infected fish, are enviromental and caused by bad water quality of some sort, or stress from overcrowding, bullying, etc..
Try to take a note when the fish do it, whether it's each day, after a water change, after you clean the filter, etc...
My fish tend to flash for a day or two after I clean the filters too much, never any ammonia on the test but I am certain there's enough to irritate them.
 
In my point of view you need improvement in the following:
 

Trickle filter running 900L/hr with an additional twin powerhead (900 L/Hr) operating 15mins/hour.

 
That doesn't seem like enough for  a 250L tank. Did you get the fish tank from all pond solutions? I'd recommend you install a second filter, external if you can afford it.  More filtration makes a world of difference for the fish.
 

I change out 60L per week, declorinated with Seachem Prime. this is about 24% of my water.

 
Try larger weekly water changes, especially at the moment that you have just the trickle filter. I'd do 40-50% weekly.
 

But my filter pads in the overhead trickle filter need rinsing weekly and get realy dense with dirt.

 
Preventing the media from getting clogged is good and needs to be done but it always takes amount of good bacteria when washign them, causing slight ammonia rise if that's the sole filter.  Hence a second filter is a good option for the health of the fish and redundancy, should one fail or underperform. And never clean both filters at the same time, never clean them in tap water either. External filters need less maintenance than others, so it's easier too. You won't regret having an overfltered tank, it's way more stable. This won't save on the water changes though

 

[dazbud]

Thanks for the advice guys. Some thought provoking suggestions. And more ideas to trial ! 
 
I think the flashing may be linked to the water change/filtering, as thinking about it I have sometimes seen it for a coupe of days after water change/filter rinsing. Incidentally I do water change and filter rinse at the same time. 
 
I had noticed that there were some tiny partcles in the water. Just in the last few days though I threw away two of the 4 filter pads cos they seemed beyond rinsing. I've also squeezed in another box full of Fluval Biomax into one of the four compartments. The water is looking crystal clear today, more than its looked since I got the tank. so fingers crossed this may prevent flashing if it was the suspended matter that was the cause. I also have some very fine poly wool on order which I'm going to lay over the top of the foam pads on the tops of the filter boxes.
 
Yes, it is an All Ponds Solution tank. I really liked the convenience of the overhead filter. Very accessible and extemely easy to clean. The compartments are generous (I believe more so than most of the external filters available) and plenty of scope for layering foams and floss etc on top of the compartmented media. I didn't really want to mess about with a further external filter if I could avoid it, hence I got the optional additional powerhead which can draw a further 900L/hr over the trickle filter (plus the existing 900L/hr from the first pump). I put the second powerhead on a timer though for 15 mins per hour, cos I didn't think it was necessary to stir up the water so much, but I may review the settings on the timer as a next step.
 
I might also switch to rinsing two of the filter foams on water change day and the other two mid week, just to minimise the disruption to bateria.I used to do this, but started doing all 4 at once because I didn't see an amonia reading afterwards. But the idea that an undetectable amonia reading might be the cause of the flashing never crossed my mind.
 
I'm guessing I'm not over crowding with 45 small(ish) community fish, although aways interested in other's opinions.
 
5 buckets out, 5 buckets in is enough of a weekly task for me. I think if I was to attempt a 50% change, that would mean 12 buckets and I would cease enjoying the care aspect.  I'm guessing at 20ppm the extra water change isn't necessary for disolved matter but more recommended for the crud and suspended matter?
 
Interesting suggestion about the contaminant. I did speak to a friend who mentioned something about his problems all improing after he changed the gravel. I'm wondering if there is anything in my tank that may be leaching chemicals. I have black 2mm gravel, a resin cave, 3 bags of speckled large pebbles, 2 large pieces of aquarium redwood (which have only recently stopped staining the water), a flat white rock out of my garden, which in turn came from a river bed, lots of live plants and two plastic plants. any of this sound suspect ?

 

[snazy]

I'd run the extra powerhead full time 24/7. I really don't see a reason why you have that on a timer.
I'd still think about an additional external filter.
45 small fish may grow to 2" each, requiring a 90G tank. Yours isn't that big so you are potentially overstocked by that rule. If you run a fully stocked or overstocked tank, you need better filtration and more water changes. The suspended matter isn't because your media isn't fine enough. It's because your filter can't do it's job. Even the fact that you need to wash the media so often is a sign of a filter not coping on its own. Finer media won't solve that, possibly temporarily but it will soon become counterproductive as it will block the flow when it becomes clogged again and you are not there to wash it.
 
Nitrate tests are useless, so never go by that, but regardless, nitrAtes aren't the only thing that determines the water quality.
There are all types of dissovled organics that you can't measure. TotalDissolvedSolids meter give some idea of the water quality, as with bad water quality the TDS rises up,  but it does not give a total picture either as it measures only dissolved stuff, not the rest and not all things that can potentially become harmful.
I'd suggest to increase the water changes. Just because it's hard for you, doesn't mean it isn't necessary.Fish won't find this a good excuse, only humans do.
 
You can get a python or you can fill up the tank with a hose directly from the tap and even use a powerhead to empty it as a DIY option.It just takes extra dechlorinator as you need to dose the amount for the entire tank, and also have a bit of hot water on tap to mix with the cold, to bring the temperature close to the tank when filling up. That's how I've always done it.
 
And plants and air stones don't do well together at all. But considering that the trickle filters in an APS tank give almost 0 surface agitation, then I wouldn't advise to remove them at that stage as I presume the airstones are the main oxygen providers in there.

 

[dazbud]

Thanks (mainly Snazy), I feel like I've had my hands slapped. But its good to get some views.
 
Stocking guide, I used to use a rule that worked off surface area, but as you know the APS tanks are deeper, so the formula didn't give useful recommendations. So (maybe conveniently) I found a website where you could type in all your fish quantities and types and it worked out your capacity. Basically, it worked it out by 2" of fish for each 4.5 litre of water in a matured tank. So at my current size of fish that formula brings me to 68% of my capacity. If the fish reach full maximum size I will be at 112%. But I guessed that not all of them would reach maximum size so I would probably stay under.
 
Never thought about using the powerhead as a means to pump waste water out of the tank. Thats a good idea thanks and I might experiment with a piece of hose. Sadly due to the position of tank in relation to kitchen, its not practical to use a python. So it has to be buckets. Whilst I fully appreciate your comments about what is good for the fish isn't necessarily convenient for me, I do have to balance my enjoyment of the hobby with the essential care and I think I would find it tedius doing 12-15 buckets a week. So I may consider allowing some natural attrition if the only means to reducing the flashing is to improve the water quality.
 
Incidentally, I've observed no flashin today or last night Also, no body made any suggestions about parasites. Was it obvious from my description that the problem has been my water quality?
 
I think I've just been lucky with the plants. Generally they do quite well, although every two weeks I alternate between liquid and tablet fertilizer. My lights are only on for 6hours daily. However, they are all easy maintenance types with the lowest light requirements.
 
suggestions on an external filter? Keep one or both of the 900L/hr existing pumps? What size external to compliment? Run the return of the new external filter straight into the tank or into the overhead trays again?

 

[snazy]

Parasites aren't excluded from the current possibilities for flashing.
The reason I accented on water quality is because that's your prevention method. Pathogens are present in the water and fish immune system can deal with most them unless they are stressed by the enviroment, then a disease outbreak happens.
If the flashing still persists, then you can look into antiparasitic meds, but careful what you medicate a tank with and when as the wrong meds can and will make it worse.
 
Take a note of one fish, and try to see if the same one flashes everyday. Which fish that you have flash, do they have white stringy poop? Do they isolate themselves from the group?
If it's water quality problem, different fish will do it each day, rather than the same one.
Maybe the last antiparasitic treatment didn't eradicate it completely. Some antiparasitic meds require a repeat dose in a couple of weeks due to the life cycle of different parasites, that's if you are sure if they did have an infestation of some sort.

 

[dazbud]

Thankfully no flashing anymore. Not sure what cured it. I did use a couple of different wormers. I also started cleaning differently, more just a surface vacuum than a dep rake. Also added very fine filter floss underneath the filter foam, which I change every 6 weeks or so. Whatever it was seems to have got right now though.

 

[snazy]

That's great to hear.  Perhaps the wormers worked against whatever they had.