How many angels in a 150g?

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So, my client, the dentist, is ready for something new. She wants a South America tank with a school of angelfish (and hopefully some breeding). So, how many angels in a 150 gallon? Where's the balance between enough to spread out aggression, but not so many that they're overcrowded?

Also, what do you all recommend for some colorful, tetra-ish schoolers to go with them? I'm leaning toward lemons and red phantoms...
 
Hey there :)
You'll have to provide heavily planted tank with roots/branches.
Temp : 25°-28°
pH 7
GH < 10°
KH < 8°
Of course no nitrite, no ammonia, very low nitrate.

Smooth sand and a dedicated beach with no obstacle for Corydoras.

• 10 angelfishes maximum as young as possible.
• 15 small Corydoras like panda.
then choose 1 species between these ones :​
• 30 Paracheirodon "cardinalis" axelrodii
• 30 Hemigrammus "firehead tetra" bleheri
• 30 Nannostomus "blackstripe pencilfish" harrisoni
• 30 Thayeria "false penguin tetra" boehlkei
• 15 Chilodus "spotted headstander" punctatus
• 15 Gymnocorymbus "black widow tetra" ternetzi
• 15 Parambassis (Chanda) "indian glass fish" ranga

It probably seems little to you but idea is to provide the best conditions to fishes. Schooling fishes do best when numerous of their own spécies : I mean only one species of Cories, not 3 different species of Cories, same for other fishes.
 
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So, my client, the dentist, is ready for something new. She wants a South America tank with a school of angelfish (and hopefully some breeding). So, how many angels in a 150 gallon? Where's the balance between enough to spread out aggression, but not so many that they're overcrowded?

Also, what do you all recommend for some colorful, tetra-ish schoolers to go with them? I'm leaning toward lemons and red phantoms...
I'd avoid the lemons, just because they are so boisterous, especially at feeding time
 
By the phrase "my client, the dentist" can we assume you will be regularly maintaining this tank? I ask because the inherent problems that may well arise from a group of angelfish will require intervention by someone like yourself who will recognize the problem(s). If this tank is not to have regular observation and maintenance, angelfish would not be a good idea.

Moving beyond the above...a 150g I assume is 5 feet (150cm) or perhaps six feet (180cm) in length? A group of seven angelfish would be my choice in a 6-foot, or five in a 5-foot. If all are introduced together, and are of the same age/size, this might work out. Having the "dither" fish already settled before introducing the five angelfish (always together, never individually) would be preferable [I'll come back to which dither fish]. If the angelfish develop a basic hierarchy, with some pushing and shoving normal, but nothing beyond that such as fin nipping and serious threats, it may work out. If at some point a pair should form, this tank (5 or 6 foot) will likely prove too small, and either the pair or the other angelfish may have to be removed to save them.

Dither fish. Corydoras are the best choice for substrate level, provided it is a sand substrate. A group of 20-30 minimum in either sized tank (5 or 6 foot). Angelfish will presumably be commercial fish, not wild caught, so temperature around 77-78 F (25-26C) will be OK. [Wild angelfish require discus-temperatures, which would burn out the cories and many other fish too.] For added interest as this will be in a public office (I am assuming), the common Whiptail Catfish (Rineloricaria parva) as one, two, or three may add some "prehistoric" flavour. Easy to maintain, very peaceful with cories and each other; just make sure it is the common species and not one of the much larger "Royal" species in different genera. There are three different species regularly offered as "Whiptail" Catfish--Rineloricaria fallax, R. lanceolata and R. parva--that have slight variations in pattern and the placement of the ventral scutes. It is also possible that some available fish may be hybrids between these three and other species. All have identical requirements in the aquarium. The average lifespan is 5-8 years.

Taxonomic sideline. In the present century this genus has undergone classification changes which are still not fully resolved. Isbrucker et al. (2001) re-established the genus Hemiloricaria [Bleeker, 1862] as distinct, along with two new genera (Leliella and Fonchiiichthys), and on the basis of sexual dimorphism moved several species from Rineloricaria into these three. The latest classification, that of Rodriguez & Reis (2008), partly accepts Isbrucker et al. (2001) phenetic proposition of splitting Rineloricaria and Hemiloricaria; but they propose that Hemiloricaria should comprise a widely-distributed group of species (Amazon and non-Amazon species) whereas Rineloricaria would be restricted to species occurring in the Rio Parana and its tributaries, and the coastal drainages from Uruguay to northeastern Brazil. As of the time of writing, this has not been universally accepted.​
The subject species was described by G.A. Boulenger in 1895 and placed in the genus Loricaria. Isbrucker assigned it to Rineloricaria in 1980. Isbrucker et al. (2001) moved it into Hemiloricaria but within a year it was back in Rineloricaria where it is presently deemed valid [according to the Code rules of the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature] whether or not some sites recognize it.​

For upper level fish, they need to be quiet swimmers. Rd Phantom are fine, Lemon tetra not. The Phantoms like many of the similar disk-shaped red/mauve coloured Hyphessobrycon species will remain in the lower half, cruising among plants, chunks of wood, etc. Surface fish are more difficult, but the larger hatchetfish in Gasteropelecus and Thoracocharax will (should) work. Avoid the smaller species in Carnegiella here. Hatchetfish jump, especially if startled (by outside activity, in a dentist's office??) so a well-covered tank is essential. Good idea anyway, to avoid "stuff" getting in.

The Penguin Tetra Thayeria boehikei is the species most common today, though T. obliqua may be the name but this is a distinct but similar species, is another surface dweller, and peaceful. Also jumpers, as would apply to any upper fish though.
 
Just spotted the suggestios in post #2 so will add some comments. Some of those I mentioned too (without seeing the earlier post) but some are not advisable with angelfish.

Generally, linear fish can be seen as food, esp as the angelfish mature. The disk-shaped "Rosy" tetra, red phantom, etc are thus better. Some of these can be dangerous though, like the Serpae...known fin nipper of angels. Rosy Tetra, Bentosi Tetra, Bleeding Heart (this is a larger-size member of this clade, and well suited to angelfish, provided it has a decent-sized group of 15-20 or a few more). Groups of 20+ for any of the others mentioned here.

The Black Widow/Skit Tetra is also known to fin nip sedate fish, so leave it out.

Pencilfish (all species in Nannostomus) are questionable, being linear (very much so), so I would bypass them.

The small-species Headstanders (in Chilodus) are interesting and very peaceful fish (the larger headstands in other genera are very different) but not easy to acclimate (food-wise), and not always "hardy." They need a good several weeks in quarantine so you can overload the food (they are substrate fededers that eat food like algae from the substrate and off wood, leaves, etc, never the surface) and ensure they are readily aware of the "food" like algae disks, etc, and eating it. Lots of green stuff, being largely vegetarian.
 
Generally, linear fish can be seen as food, esp as the angelfish mature.
I saw many times linear fishes (mostly cardinalis, pencilfish, 4-5 cm long)) peacefully living with Angels and also Discus.
The Black Widow/Skit Tetra is also known to fin nip sedate fish
Seriously Fish caresheet say that this "behaviour can usually be rectified by keeping it in a small shoal of at least 6-8 specimens."
small-species Headstanders (in Chilodus) are interesting and very peaceful fish (the larger headstands in other genera are very different) but not easy to acclimate (food-wise), and not always "hardy." They need a good several weeks in quarantine
Every fish has to be quarantined I think.
All fishes prefer live food except for those strictly vegetarian.
 
Do not keep cardinals with the angels - at adult size they will snack on the smaller ones; and don't keep anything smaller than cardinals. As for number - that is a tough one. This is my 120. I currently have 8 - i had 11 but had to remove 3. However getting to this 'stable' crowd was not easy. And to be honest you will have to buy a few - maybe 10 or 12 and then if necessary remove a few. You won't really know the dynamics until they reach sexual maturity. In my case I started with 8 and ended up with 3 (long story). I let one pair breed and then put in 8 of the off springs. One off spring died (long story); and 2 kept ganging up on dad so i removed them and now things are mostly stable.
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As for tetra - as I said if you keep them with cardinals a few will be snacked on - however serpae, rosy tetra, lemon tetra, black neon and such should be fine.
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I have loaches and sterbai in the tank which are pretty much invisible. One thing about the angels be prepare to adjust the numbers when they reach maturity. The idea is if they grow up together they will adjust and establish pecking order before maturity but it doesn't always work out that way.
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Anyway this is my 120:

120.jpg
 
Moving beyond the above...a 150g I assume is 5 feet (150cm) or perhaps six feet (180cm) in length? A group of seven angelfish would be my choice in a 6-foot, or five in a 5-foot.
This is the only part i would disagree with. 2 angels are of course safe and more than 2 of the same sex will work but I find if you get one or more pairs 5 angels is too few for any sort of stablity. The female of a breeding pair will kindly remove angels in too small a group. Even in my densely planted tank she had no problem chasing down weaker competition and well quite frankly removing them. I think if you go over 2 you should try for a minimum of 8 but of course the dynamics have to be watched carefully as they reached maturity.
 
Some issues from recent posts.
Seriously Fish caresheet say that this "behaviour can usually be rectified by keeping it in a small shoal of at least 6-8 specimens."

This refers to the species itself; nipping within the Black Skirts may be less with a larger group. However, such fish (having a tendency to nip normally) should never be put in with sedate fish (cichlids, gourami, etc) as it is too much like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

I saw many times linear fishes (mostly cardinalis, pencilfish, 4-5 cm long)) peacefully living with Angels and also Discus.

Yes, it can work...but it also goes against the inherent traits of the angelfish and this is always something to recognize. If this tank is in a public space it is not going to have the "attention" a home tank would (hopefully) receive, and such "po9ssible risks" should be taken seriously. Avoid linear fish to be safe. I'm sure the clients in the dental office won't mind not having linear fish in the tank...unless they enjoy seeing fish eating fish!

2 angels are of course safe and more than 2 of the same sex will work but I find if you get one or more pairs 5 angels is too few for any sort of stablity. The female of a breeding pair will kindly remove angels in too small a group. Even in my densely planted tank she had no problem chasing down weaker competition and well quite frankly removing them. I think if you go over 2 you should try for a minimum of 8 but of course the dynamics have to be watched carefully as they reached maturity.

Agree in principle, but tank space here is an issue. And I did say that trouble down the road was likely. As for two angels, never do this unless it is a bonded pair; this is a shoaling species, living in groups, and that really is how it should be maintained--but most home tanks are no where near large enough. The video link below I have often posted, but it is how this fish deserves to be housed...this is an 200cmX65cmX65cm tank, 750 liters, according to the owner, who said he intended to move the group into a larger tank. But the 11 angelfish are interacting exactly as they would in their habitat. When a pair forms, as it likely will in time, this tank may prove too small.

 
Thanks for the suggestions, everybody! I suppose I'll start out with a fairly large group of young angels, but I'll prepare the client for the reality that I am likely to have to rehome some of them at some point in the future.
 
Wow what an interesting thread :) I think between all the knowledge shared here you can start to see a venn diagram where there is an agreeable crossover. Looking forward to seeing where this goes :)

@anewbie stunning tank!

Wills
 

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