How long

[Tim K]

I have a 29 gallon tank, freshwater. Running a Marineland 220 canister and a topfin power filter. I have 2 Glo Danios and 4 small Glo tetra. It has been a long time since I have kept fish, not up to date and I guess forgotten a lot. I started tank at Beginning of January, I had set up weeks prior but added fish slowly. The ammonia did not start to rise until late January perhaps .25 to.50 tops. It slowly has risen to 1 or slightly over max. If it gets higher I do 10 to 25% water change . My question is how long does typical ammonia spike last . It seems a bit long that it is now March 3rd and still seeing .5 to 1 with 0 nitrite. The fish show no stress and I only do water change if I fear that are being stressed. I have read and heard and talked to several sources and get conflicting suggestions. From do weekly water change to do no water change. I am not willing to let fish suffer. I have heard water changes prolong cycle yet also no they do not since nitrifying bacteria is on surfaces. I have not changed filter media, maybe one change on power filter but never the canister or any biological media. Is there a typical time frame the ammonia spike last, at one point the ammonia dropped a pit and I had slight nitrites, the next day it was back to 0 nitrites. Had I known then what I know now I would do fishless cycle. I do add Fluval Cycle to water change water. This just seems rather long for one portion of cycle. Also my Ph seems to stay on high side even if I lower it, as I have read higher Ph with ammonia is more dangerous to fish, so I try to maintain 7.0 . Any help would be much appreciated. Sadly most the trie fish stores by me no longer exist. There is one but I get conflicting answers from employees. All the other stores are chain pet stores. So questions, Is this abnormally long ? Can I help by adding any bacteria ? Do I let it ride and if so at what point do I need to do water change for fish safety ? I love the hobby and want to expand . Thanks
Tim

 

[FishGuest5123]

I normally do fishless cycles but I would do w/c at 1ppm...no lower. Must have ammonia to convert to nitrites. You may want to try some Tetra Safe Start + to get cycle moving faster. You can also add Seachem Stability to kick it going. If you use Prime as your water conditioner, use something else for the first 24 hours. Then start with Prime. I avoid water changes when cycling as much as I can but again I do fishless. You have to protect the fish in your case. Good luck!

 

[Byron]

Welcome to TFF. A couple of things here.

First, do not mess with the pH. Chemicals alleged to lower or raise (whichever) the pH are dangerous to fish, and usually they will not work anyway, as seems to be the case here. That is because the pH is tied to the GH and KH, the latter especially acting as a "buffer" to prevent pH fluctuations. Using chemicals to lower the pH work immediately, but within say 24 hours the buffering of the KH returns the pH to where it belongs (in the water chemistry scheme of things). All of this is extremely stressful to fish, as they must continually work to maintain a blood pH equal to their aquatic environment. I would suggest a significant water change of 60-70% of the tank to remove as much of this pH chemical as you can.

Now to the cycling. As fish are present, the goal should be to remove/reduce the effect of the ammonia as rapidly as possible; internal damage from ammonia is not going to cure itself, it is permanent. This is a case where a bacterial supplement is highly advisable. Tetra's SafeStart would be ideal if you can get a small bottle locally. But almost any similar product can help, and the Fluval Cycle will be better than nothing. If you have live plants you are even better off, as they take up ammonia/ammonium fairly rapidly if they happen to be fast-growing species, and floating plants are the best for this.

Water changes using a conditioner that detoxifies ammonia and nitrite would also help. Seachem's Prime does this, and AP's Ultimate. A small bottle of either would be useful now. Keep in mind that these products temporarily detoxify the ammonia/nitrite, and after 24-36 hours the substances if present again become toxic, hence the regular water changes.

When you have live fish in a tank that is going through cycling, your first actions must be to protect the fish from ammonia/nitrite as much as possible, regardless of other issues. Saving the fish is more important that speeding up the cycling.

 

[FishGuest5123]

Byron, I usually seed my tanks now so it’s been awhile since I’ve had to cycle a tank. Is my memory failing me? I was thinking that using Prime in the first 24 hours after using Safe Start would destroy the bottled bacteria. I was thinking that the Safe Start detoxifies the ammonia too so no need for the Prime to begin with. Can you clarify? Thanks so much.

 

[Byron]

Byron, I usually seed my tanks now so it’s been awhile since I’ve had to cycle a tank. Is my memory failing me? I was thinking that using Prime in the first 24 hours after using Safe Start would destroy the bottled bacteria. I was thinking that the Safe Start detoxifies the ammonia too so no need for the Prime to begin with. Can you clarify? Thanks so much.

That is a very good thought, and I do not know the answer. Let's hope other members do and can clear this up for us.

I never cycle tanks, and never have, because they always have live plants and floating ones at that, so there has never been any need to "cycle" as such. I generally advise Prime or Ultimate when cycling is occurring (without plants) and the bacterial supplements do help, but the two products may well interact. That is precisely why it is so dangerous to use more than one additive at a time; chemical reactions can be detrimental for fish.

 

[FishGuest5123]

Thanks so much, Byron. I no longer have to cycle either. I may be confused since it’s been some time since I’ve had to cycle. Anyone else? I want to be clear as not to give ill advice.

 

[Tim K]

Thanks for advice, it’s been a long time since I’ve done tanks. I do know the rest of my tanks I’ll do fishless cylcle, I’ll continue partial water changes to keep ammonia down, I also added some stable. I am wondering why ph runs high. I do have a gh/kHz test kit, I am wondering how Ph and Gh/Kh interact. Does a harder water cause higher Ph, if so should I soften, My concern is I have read a high Ph can also be harmful to fish, so what is a good way to keep Ph in a decent range. I have read to use peat in the filter but read it causes the water to be darker. Thanks for all your input. I am thinking wate changes to control ammonia instead of chemical to neutralize. One question, anyone doing fish cycle, is the one month a unusual time length, I know I do not overfeed by any means. I also believe the Marineland canister filter a pretty decent filter, has both bio balls and a ceramic bio filter section along with the mechanical filteration and chemical filteration. My power filter came with tank, just a cheap topfin, but it is similar in design to many more expensive power filters, with the same surface area bio grid. I will certainly do next thanks fishless and seed when this ne finally cycles. I just hate when I go to the one remaining aquarium store near me I get multiple conflicting answers. I used to have good stores with knowlegable owners. Thanks Tim

 

[Colin_T]

Byron, I usually seed my tanks now so it’s been awhile since I’ve had to cycle a tank. Is my memory failing me? I was thinking that using Prime in the first 24 hours after using Safe Start would destroy the bottled bacteria. I was thinking that the Safe Start detoxifies the ammonia too so no need for the Prime to begin with. Can you clarify? Thanks so much.

Dechlorinators that bind to free ammonia do not harm the beneficial filter bacteria. If they did then the tanks would never cycle and the filters would die off whenever you did a water change.

The chemicals that bind to ammonia simply make it a less harmful form of ammonia for a period of time (about 24 hours). During this time the filter bacteria (assuming there are any) should be able to eat the ammonia and convert it into nitrite and then nitrate.

Unfortunately in a newly set up tank without an established biological filter, the ammonia that has been trapped by Prime or whatever is used, does not get converted into nitrite and then nitrate. So you need to do regular (possibly daily) water changes to keep the ammonia levels as low as possible so it doesn't harm the fish.

In a newly set up aquarium, you should only feed the fish a couple of times a week and do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate 4-8 hours after feeding. It takes fish a couple of hours to start producing ammonia from a meal and if you wait 4-8 hours, they should have produced whatever ammonia they are going to make, and then you do a big water change to dilute the ammonia in the water.

You should also monitor the ammonia and nitrite levels daily and do a 75% water change any day you have an ammonia or nitrite reading above 0. The fish are constantly producing small amounts of ammonia and this is enough to keep filter bacteria alive. But you need to keep the ammonia levels as low as possible so it does less damage to the fish.

*NB* Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

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If the pH of the water is less than 7.0, then the ammonia in the water is not as harmful and you can let the levels go up a bit, but try to keep it as low as possible.

If the pH of the water is above 7.0, then any ammonia produced will be very toxic and harm the fish. The higher the pH, the more toxic it becomes.

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I am wondering why pH runs high. I do have a GH/ KH test kit, I am wondering how pH and GH/ KH interact. Does a harder water cause higher pH, if so should I soften,

GH is general hardness and is usually made up from calcium and magnesium chloride. These salts make the water hard but do not affect the pH that much.

KH is carbonate hardness and is the amount of carbonates and bicarbonates in the water. These increase the pH and the more carbonates and bicarbonates in the water, the higher the KH will be. The higher the KH, the higher the pH will be and the harder it will be to drop the pH.

In an aquarium you get acids from fish food, waste, dead plant, carbon dioxide or anything else that rots or breaks down in the water. The carbonates/ bicarbonates react with the acids in the water and the acids are neutralised by them. When this happens the amount of carbonates/ bicarbonates left in the water is reduced a bit. The more acids that are produced in the water, the faster the carbonates get used up and the faster the KH can drop.

If there are lots of acids in the water, the carbonates/ bicarbonates get used up quickly and when there is none left, the pH can drop rapidly and suddenly. KH helps stabilise the pH and stops it from dropping.

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Unless you know what the pH, GH and KH are, do not use a water softener. Some of these units replace calcium and magnesium with sodium, which is harmful to many freshwater fishes.

If you want fish that naturally occur in hard water, you need hard water for them so a water softener is not good for them.

If you want fishes that naturally occur in soft water, then you can use rain water, a reverse osmosis (r/o) unit, or a solar still (distillation unit) to remove minerals from the water. But you need to know the GH first. There is no point softening the water if it doesn't have any minerals in it to begin with.

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If you want to use a liquid bacterial supplement, they can help the filter to develop faster. I recommend using a double dose every day for the first week, then depending on how much is left, either put the rest in the fridge or just pour it into the tank.

Try to add the supplement near the filter intake so it gets drawn into the filter where it belongs.

If you buy bacterial supplements or medications, or test kits, try to get them from a cool area. Do not buy them if they are sitting next to a heat source or a window where the sun shines down on them. Heat damages these products so try to buy them from a cool spot and keep them cool and dry when you get them home.