How Can I Accomplish Low Ph And High Kh Without Co2? (Expert Needed)

Maehlice

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I'm on a quest now to better understand water chemistry in freshwater aquariums.  Eventually, this will lead to CO2 dosing and heavy planting.  However, I'm getting hung up right now on pH and KH.
 
My goal is to permanently neutralize the water but maintain a high KH -- preferably between 8-12.  If I can't maintain a high KH but can still neutralize the water and stay near a 4 KH, I'll be content.
 
 
My RO water has a pH value of about 7.6 and a KH of around 4 (~75 ppm).  I would like to lower the pH to 7.0 without destroying the KH in the process.  My fish (Silver Dollars, Clown Loaches, Kribensis, Tetras) are acclimated to the water, but if I can lower it to their supposed "preferred" ph level, I wish to do so.
 
NOTE:  I understand fluctuating pH levels can be lethal and that a stable pH is more important than a "preferred" pH.  Right now, I need some knowledge; I'll apply wisdom later.
 
 
Dosing CO2 is probably the most direct method of decreasing pH without affecting KH, but that's a temporary solution lasting only for as long as the CO2 keeps pumping.
 
So, I think I need some sort of dissolved additive.
 
Carbonates can raise KH without also raising pH.  I have potassium carbonate (potash).
 
However, adding a carbonate to a solution where acids are present forms a bicarbonate and increases pH.
 
 
This is where I keep getting stuck, because I only know of one additive which reduces pH -- acids.  But, that acid is reacting with the potash to raise the pH.
 
I've used vinegar, citric acid and pH down.  I've tried making the water slightly basic (7.1), neutral (7.0) and even corrosive before adding potash.  But every time I add potash to increase the KH, the pH jumps up right along with it.
 
I've also tried adding the potash first, but [for obvious reasons], I have to use more acid and eventually find myself back at 7.0 with almost zero KH.
 
 
What am I missing here?  I'm ignorant of something vital.
 
 
BTW, all these tests have been outside the aquarium in test tubes, bottles and beakers.  I won't be applying anything to the tank until I have a firm understanding of these concepts and plausible repercussions.
 
I don't think there is any benefit in altering water parameters, fish can live happily in quite varied water chemistries with out any bother.
Your ro water at ph 7.6 and kh 4 is good for any fish to be honest. Do you re mineralise the water?
Trying to change water chemistry is just going to be a never ending battle and will likely distract you from the main goal in fishkeeping which is simply enjoying your aquarium!
 
I remineralise with Seachem Replinish and bring it back up to about 12 dGH.
 
Surprisingly, I enjoy the "science" of it as much as anything else.  Besides, there's not much to enjoy when the lights go out.  :)
 
I'm not certain whether I'll change the water chemistry, but I can't get it out of my head now to see this thought process through to the end -- even if only to be able to say "I got it" and give closure.
 
Fish don't mind fluctuating pH levels, as long as its not a very dramatic sudden change afaik. If you were to inject co2 its actually easier to move the pH with a lower kh. The higher you go with kh the more resistance you have to pH swing. If you did inject co2 you would end up with the pH swinging about 1ph lower and back again every day (assuming you had it on a timer to turn off at night)
 
KH and pH are firmly interlinked and its impossible to have high KH and low pH, sry :)
 
At low pH you always have this reaction going on reducing your KH:
 
HCO3-  + H3O+  =>  H2O  +  CO2
 
levahe said:
Fish don't mind fluctuating pH levels, as long as its not a very dramatic sudden change afaik. If you were to inject co2 its actually easier to move the pH with a lower kh. The higher you go with kh the more resistance you have to pH swing. If you did inject co2 you would end up with the pH swinging about 1ph lower and back again every day (assuming you had it on a timer to turn off at night)
 
I've been told fish can stress out over a pH change of just 0.3.  Is there any validity in that?
 

 
hobby5 said:
KH and pH are firmly interlinked and its impossible to have high KH and low pH, sry 
smile.png

 
At low pH you always have this reaction going on reducing your KH:
 
HCO3-  + H3O+  =>  H2O  +  CO2
 
I've read elsewhere that reaction occurs in only about 1% of the CO2 introduced to the water.  At this point, though, I'm only concerned with new water not yet in the tank; would that still be a major concern for still water in a 5gal jug?
 
Is it possible to have neutral pH (or perhaps just barely basic) and high KH?
 
I was talking to my dad about something completely unrelated and found myself on this subject as he talked about his pool.  He deals with water chemistry in the pool all the time and said he has always adjusted his KH first and then the pH.
 
This makes no sense to me since increasing KH first makes it harder to adjust pH later, but I figured what the hell and tried it.
 
So after more futzing around with this all week, I've managed to come out with new water having a pH of just over 7.0 and a KH of 5.
 
I did extensive reading and now understand just how little I understand about all this.  One thing I think I understand is why the presence of carbonates makes it impossible to permanently reduce water to an acidic state.
 
For now, I'm going to leave well enough alone.  I don't think I know enough yet about water chemistry and pH to safely alter my aquarium's parameters.
 
 
In the meantime, if somebody can explain why adjusting KH prior to pH was more effective, I'm all ears.
 
FYI- RO water should have close to 0 KH. Only a unit in need of changing membranes etc. will go much higher. I use ro/di water and i lower water pH. the ro/di is there for two reasons: 1. To lower the TDS/conductivity. 2. To remove KH so I can use muriatic acid to facilitate lowering the pH. Adding the acid will raise the TDS.
 
Now I am only targetting 6.0 pH, but I have gone down as low as 4.2 pH and in the 35 ppm TDS range. No co2, no buffers. Just about 1/3 ro/di and 2/3 tap and acid. My tap is 83 ppm TDS, 7.1 pH and a KH of 4dg. I am also using almond leaves and alder cones to help hold things at a low pH and soft. I also use rooibos tea for staining and other benefits to reduce the almond leaves needed and the work in changing them. The tea does not lower the pH.
 
I use a three way digital monitor to measure pH, TDS.conductivity and temp.
 
Some fish can handle big pH swings, others can not. If you are unsure, change things more slowly. I have seen wild fish from acid waters tolerate a full 1.0 pH change in under 5 minutes with no problems. Please, do not try this if you are not 100% sure of what your are doing.
 
TwoTankAmin said:
I use a three way digital monitor to measure pH, TDS.conductivity and temp.
 
What monitor do you use?  I've considered getting one, but most seem a bit too pricey for me to just randomly pick one.  I also know nothing of aquatic brands other than 'AquaTop', which is from whom I got my submersible heaters.
 

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