Hi Everyone - New User Here Already With Difficultys

[mark1979]

Hello everybody

im new to the forum and to tropical fishkeeping.

i like i have read on here from other users, was nieve and followed the advise of my lfs and added my 1st fish after 1 week .

i have a 260L fluval vicenza tank with

300W rena heater
405 fluval external filter,with pre filter tray(with filter wool above),2 x biomax trays and the final tray clearmax
rena air pump
gravel subsrate
temp is 25-26 degree's
i condition the water with stress coat and use stress zyme for the cycle part
i have 6 bamboo plants aswell

all was going well i thought until 2 days ago i noticed a big surge in nitrite 0.5,i carried out a water change (100L) around 40% and tested again to find it had dropped to 0.25!! i also didnt feed the fish for the last day

i gather now that i now am in a fish in cycle,so any advise which i havent read about already would be so much help!!!

i work at full week 8-5 and have a 7 month old baby,so i can only change the water once a day during the week,what % should i do each evening?

i realy dont want to lose any of my fish,and i have had words with my lfs and they didnt seem to give a damn!! so i wont be back there in a hurry!!!

in all my years of keeping pets,i have not lost 1 due to neglect/conditons,and i dont wanna start now

i have also added some aquarium salt to try and help the fish,is this advised?

by the way i have:

6 cardinal tetra's
4 pristella tetra's
2 bleeding heart tetra's (1 is going loopy it seems,darting back and forth,and doing small circles)
3 panda cory's

many thank in advance for any help/advice

mark

 

[rewlyn]

id try 60% welcome

 

[Bobtastic]

im new to the forum and to tropical fishkeeping.

i have a 260L fluval vicenza tank with

Wow! Talk about throwing yourself in at the deep end!

It tends to be the most water you have (bigger tank) the more forgiving it will be. I personally think it's not as easy as a "standard" percentage of water to change. I'd go with a bit of trial and error, if the 40% wasn't enough to get it as low as you wanted it next time do a bit more. That is a lot of water to change, even at 40%. Do test your water daily? I found that I haven't needed to do more than one water change a day with my fish-in cycle. I did have less fish than you, but I also have about 150L less water too.

What are your current water states?

 

[mark1979]

im new to the forum and to tropical fishkeeping.

i have a 260L fluval vicenza tank with

Wow! Talk about throwing yourself in at the deep end!

It tends to be the most water you have (bigger tank) the more forgiving it will be. I personally think it's not as easy as a "standard" percentage of water to change. I'd go with a bit of trial and error, if the 40% wasn't enough to get it as low as you wanted it next time do a bit more. That is a lot of water to change, even at 40%. Do test your water daily? I found that I haven't needed to do more than one water change a day with my fish-in cycle. I did have less fish than you, but I also have about 150L less water too.

What are your current water states?

i have a huge lounge,so i though i would get the biggest tank i could afford. 260L is a ball ache to change,but i do have a little secret for easier water changes!!

im using the api master test kit and have been for 3 weeks,

i tested everyday since day 4 and had the following results

ph - 7.4 (when i do the normal ph test its 7.6,when i do the high range test it shows 7.2)
ammonia - 0
nitrite - 0
nitrate - 0.25

that was the results everyday until 2 days ago,then i got

ph - 7.4
ammonia - 0.25
nitrite - 0.5
nitrate 0.5

i knew this was not good,so as soon as i got back from work i did a 100L change,thats about 40%,and the levels dropped to

ph - 7.4
ammonia - 0.25
nitrite - 0.25
nitrate 0.5

i havent fed the fish since that change in water,and once i get home from work 2nite i wil test again. im preparing to do a 100L change again (40%) is this a good idea or more?

 

[Bobtastic]

That looks about right, it's definitely going in the right direction.

I would definitely carry on feeding the fishies, I think it's very unlikely that the ammonia is being caused by waste food with that may fish in the tank (unless you are really over feeding them). Might be worth feeding them less than you have done in the past (I think it's usual for you to give them too much food to start with, but I understand that that pretty harmful in itself).

I'm actually quite surprised that you're not seeing more ammonia than that with all those fishies swimming about and peeing and pooping all over the place!

I would wait and see what the results are if they are extremely high levels (I believe that anything above 0.6ppm is a major cause for concern) then do a larger water change, leave it for a few minutes (10-20) and then test it again. If it's still "too high" do another water change. Tho if they are the same as b4 then just change out the same amount as b4.

 

[mark1979]

what media woul dbe suggested in my fluval 405?

i have this at the moment

TOP TRAY = Clearmax

2ND TRAY = Biomax

3RD TRAY = Biomax

BOTTOM TRAY = Pre Filter (with some fine wool over the top of them)

the sponge's are what came with it

 

[waterdrop]

Hi there Mark and Welcome to TFF!

"but i do have a little secret for easier water changes!!"

Hopefully this means you either have built-in tank faucets and drains or have discovered the Python-type devices! You'd have a huge reason to figure out a Python system as that would allow significant unattended minutes during draining and fill, not to mention less work overall. Water change details are going to be very important for you, being stuck in a month minimum probably of daily or so large changes.

Actually you initial fish load doesn't sound bad to me for a big (nearly 70G) tank like that and a Fluval 405 to cycle. First thing I'd do is replace that clearmax media with something else, perhaps Seachem Matrix or Eheim SubstratPro so that you are getting a layer of ceramic gravel to contrast with your good layers of Fluval BioMax. The biomax is Fluvals version of ceramic rings, so that will be a very good biomedia for you. The Clearmax product (I think previously called PhosX or something) was supposed to be something to chemically remove nitrite and nitrate but it probably would do a poor job and not be enough for your tank volume and you'd have to replace it frequently, so its just not something we'd recommend I don't think, especially since we don't really want chemical-type media in there messing with the feedback of what's going on with the cycle. You'd not want it to starve your N-Bacs (Nitrospira bacteria, the second of our two species we're trying to grow in the filter) right?

Sounds like you're very close to a good understanding of the "Fish-In Cycling Situation" and are doing some good water changes. The goal in fish-in cycling is to never have the ammonia or nitrite(NO2) levels go over 0.25ppm before you can get back to the tank and do another water change to get them back down. So as Bob has outlined, you have to be a bit of a detective in figuring out the percentage and frequency of water change that will accomplish this. Don't hesitate to use bigger percentages if necessary as poisoning via nitrite or ammonia is much more damaging to the fish than any shock incurred by large water changes, assuming you use good technique by conditioning and rough temp matching. Test twice a day and work out your usual times, usually about 12 hours apart but its the goal of staying under the max toxin levels that's important of course.

One concern will be that both the cards/neons and the corydoras would be species that we'd ideally have a waiting period for (even -after- properly fishless cycling the filter system!) with an extra couple months sometimes before corys and as much as 6 months before cards/neons. Of course its a statistical chance thing so you might very well do ok by maintaining good fish-in cycle technique. Ammonia, even in small amounts, causes permanent gill damage. Nitrite(NO2), even in small amounts, causes destruction of the hemoglobin cells in fish blood, leading to suffocation and permanent nerve damage. So its not always easy to have fish survive a fish-in cycling situation just because practical circumstances make it difficult for average families to manually do the work of a biofilter. Don't let that worry you though as its just to keep you determined to do your water changes during the month(s) ahead with determination! Good luck!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[mark1979]

hey waterdrop

thanks for the welcome and the confidence booster. i need it,feels like im fighting a losing battle

i got rid of the clearmax,and for now added another biomax tray,until i can get some other media

i have much difficulty testing twice a day,i start work at 8am,and sort my little boy out before that,so i can only realisticly test once a day

last night i had a:

ph 7.2
amm 0
nitrite 0.50
nitrate 5 ( i left the tube for a longer period and it then crept upto 10,should you just read it after 5 mins?)

its a api master test kit by the way

i changed 125L (5 x 25L jerry cans) which is almost 50%,and i got the nitrite down to 0,so i was happy about that

yes i did get told about the corys/cardinals after i put them in,again misled by my lfs who said they would be fine!!



as for the water changes,it isnt realy a secret as many users probaly do the same,i dont no why i said secret realy lol

i put 2 100L containers in my lounge,near the tank and fill them up from the kitchen sink,with a length of hose,bring to temp and add my water conditioner

as these are filling (which takes a while) i syphon the water from the tank into my 25L jerry cans,i did try and syphon it right out of the door into the drain,but it turned out messy,so i stuck with the jerry cans!! this also makes my parents happy when i see them,as they use the dirty water for there garden,the plants love the pooey water.lol

once all water i want is out of the tank,i hook up my sebmersable pump in the new water and pump it back in the tank!! i have it on a slow flow so i dont disturb the substrate!!

i then sit down and have a tea/coffee or whatever and watch for when the conmtainer is almost empty,when it is i put the pump in the other container and do the same process.

this may sound like a well lazy way to do things,but at the moment im changing 125L daily,and this method is ideal,and alot less messy!!!

also the pristella tetra's love swimming through the flow of water from the new water coming in


as a random off topic query,are bleeding heart tetra's shy? i have 2 and they hide until i turn the lights off,then they dart around so fast having fun!!

mark

 

[waterdrop]

Can the output end of the hose not reach the tank itself? I was thinking maybe you could bring the output end to the sink, adjust the mixing taps to a temp that matches a cup of tank water (testing with your hand), then hold the output (flowing) in the jerry can, walk to tank like that, hold the jerry can close/over the tank and quickly transfer the flowing hose from the jerry can to the tank and then just finish filling the tank directly. (?)

The minute timings on liquid tests must be read at the correct minute. The color shade of the result has no meaning if not read at the correct minute since mixing.

Bleeding Hearts, like most other tetras, are hardwired by evolution to live in a large shoal of many fish. When you get them down to below about 6, they "think" they have been separated from their shoal and are going to die soon, so they stay stressed. Bleeding hearts, unfortunately, can also be pretty nippy agressive fish, once they do de-stress.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[mark1979]

It would reach yes,but i like to mix the conditoner into the new water,before it goes into the tank.

last night i had a:

ph - 7.2
amm - 0
nitrite 0.25
nitrate 5

i did a 100L water change and it took the nitrite down to 0


when do i no that things are coming to the end?

 

[Bobtastic]

When ammonia and nitrites stay as 0... In a fishless cycle you have a "qualifying week" which is when you get a zero reading on both ammonia/nitrites for subsequent days (doesn't need to be 7days just a few days). I assume that a similar applies with fishin cycling, at this point we can add is a few more fishies (not too many tho, as you want to stager fish additions). You will then have to go back to testing the water stats to make user that your biofiltration can handle the newly added fishies. If the ammonia and nitrite levels go up again, you're back to Water Change Town with regular stops in Water Test-ville.

That being said it shouldnt take the same amount of time to get back to zero as you are only building on existing bacteria growth rather than starting out from scratch and this is the process you'll follow when ever you add new fish.

 

[waterdrop]

Mark wrote:

when do i no that things are coming to the end?

Bob wrote:

When ammonia and nitrites stay as 0... In a fishless cycle you have a "qualifying week" which is when you get a zero reading on both ammonia/nitrites for subsequent days (doesn't need to be 7days just a few days). I assume that a similar applies with fishin cycling, at this point we can add is a few more fishies (not too many tho, as you want to stager fish additions). You will then have to go back to testing the water stats to make user that your biofiltration can handle the newly added fishies. If the ammonia and nitrite levels go up again, you're back to Water Change Town with regular stops in Water Test-ville.
<...>

In a fish-in cycle the ending is similar but different. We like to guess that a fish-in cycle averages about a month and Mark hasn't ever told us exactly how long his has been going on but it sounds like maybe about 3 weeks, so he's getting closer to the end hopefully. The test for the end of a fish-in cycle is 2 full days of zero ppm ammonia and zero ppm nitrite(NO2) with no water changes. If you get that result then its kind of like starting your qualifying week in a fishless cycle in that you should then continue to test without changing water to prove that the filter can keep things at zero for a week or at least several days. After that you can consider getting 2 or 3 small fish if that's what you've been waiting for. Each time you do a small fish addition you'll want to test carefully, watching for a "mini-spike" (trace ammonia or nitrite) and making sure the colonies catch back up quickly.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[mark1979]

yep sorry, i have had the tank running for 3 weeks 2morrow.

 

[mark1979]

i got a:

ph - 7.2
amm - 0
nitrite - 0
nitrate 5

last night!!

can this be the beginning of the end

 

[waterdrop]

Possibly! Just don't change water and see if it can keep double-zeros for 2 days. If it does, then just keep testing for a week before you try any more fish adds.

~~waterdrop~~