Help With Neon Tetra Death

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KieranBoyne

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My neon tetra died!!! One of the 3 was found dead this morning, his body was eaten away. He was fine yesterday though so I don't know what happened. Well, I kinda do but.....
 
I tested the water yesterday, and everything was perfect. now today when I tested it my nitrite is 1 and my nitrate is 50!!!
help!!!!
 
R.I.P buddy
 
Do a wc bring the nitrite and nitrate down. 
 
To understand what might have happened, we'll need more information.
 
 
How big is the tank?
What's the stock?
What about ammonia?
Recent additions?
 
60 litres
1 small bn pleco
1 platy
2 red phantom tetras
2 neon tetras
3 glowilght tetras
3 harlequin rasboras
4 pearl danios
 
Ammonia 0
 
Most recent additions was before Christmas last year, when I bought the glowlights and the platy
 
Did the neon show any symptoms, loss of colour, loss of appetite, bloating, keeping away from the other two neons etc.
 
Sometimes there is no answer to why a fish died suddenly, my advice would be to keep an eye on the water for a while and do a wc if readings are not right.
 
Sodium chloride can help fish cope with a nitrite spike.  You can add 1 tsp of salt to your tank to 'detoxify' the nitrite.  I know your pleco doesn't like salt but this small amount should be tolerable and should do more good than harm.
 
All those tetra also should be kept in numbers of 6 or more
 
A neon tetra dying should not be a surprise.  These fish are weak to begin with and require absolute best water quality.  You also need numbers since they are a schooling fish.  These aren't beginner fish IMOH.
 
fishwarrior said:
A neon tetra dying should not be a surprise.  These fish are weak to begin with and require absolute best water quality.  You also need numbers since they are a schooling fish.  These aren't beginner fish IMOH.
 
 
I disagree completely.  It depends on the stock.  My neons have been quite hardy and have tolerated much more difficult conditions than some more 'hardy' tetras.
daizeUK said:
Sodium chloride can help fish cope with a nitrite spike.  You can add 1 tsp of salt to your tank to 'detoxify' the nitrite.  I know your pleco doesn't like salt but this small amount should be tolerable and should do more good than harm.
 
To detoxify nitrite, you need to know the exact level of the nitrite and add sufficient chloride to add 6-10x more chloride than nitrite.  So, if you have 1ppm nitrite, you'll want 10ppm chloride.
 

[SIZE=13pt]Calculating How Much Salt to Add[/SIZE]
To add 10 ppm of chloride for every ppm of nitrite in the water, use the following steps:
1. Multiply your nitrite test reading by 10. This will give you the needed mg/l of chloride you need to add.
2. Calculate the actual volume in liters of the water in your tank. If your volume is in gallons you must convert this into liters. (As a rule, using the advertised volume of the tank at about 85% will put you in the right ballpark.)  1 gallon = 3.875 liters
3. Multiply the number in #1 above by the number of liters of water in #2 above to get the total number of mg of  chloride you will need to add.
4. Because salt is roughly 2/3 chloride, you must multiply the number calculated in #3 by 1.5.  You now know how many mg of salt you should add to the water. Dividing this number by 1,000 will convert this amount to grams which are easier to weigh for most people.
5. Do not add the dry salt directly to the tank. Remove some tank water to a container and mix the salt in that, then add the salt water to the tank spreading it around the surface.
 
The formula is 1.25 tsp of salt per 100L of water to detoxify up to 5ppm Nitrite.  That's where I got the 1 tsp from :)
 
Anyways.... I googled about pleco's and salt and a couple of websites said that they hate it and that it feels like their on fire... I don't want mine to feel like that. Also, do you think the reason of death is the nitrite?? And I did a water change and got the nitrite down to 0.5 and the nitrate down to between 30-35. I will do another water change tomorrow and hope I eliminate all nitrite. Thanks for all of the advice guys.
 
Yes, nitrite stops the uptake of oxygen in the blood, leading to a condition called 'brown blood'.
 
 
0.5 ppm nitrite is still a dangerous level.  Waiting until tomorrow to do a water change is not going to do your remaining fish any good.
 
You'd need to add 0.385 grams (based on the calculation quoted above) of salt to protect the fish from taking up any MORE nitrite into their system than they have already.  And remember that only TIME can allow the fish to work the nitrite out of their blood.  Meanwhile, you'll want to increase aeration to increase the available amount of O2 in the water.
 
 
daizeUK said:
The formula is 1.25 tsp of salt per 100L of water to detoxify up to 5ppm Nitrite.  That's where I got the 1 tsp from
smile.png
 
That makes sense.  I prefer to dose only for the amount that's actually there, especially when it involved fish that are less salt tolerant (plecos) so that you aren't overdosing the salt.  Also, its always best to explain where the amount that you are recommending is coming from, just so that anyone reading (not necessarily just the OP) can learn how to deal with the scenario in the future for ANY tank, not just the blanket '1 tsp'.
 
Further, while it might seem like a trivial thing, measuring the salt by volume won't necessarily give you the correct amount of salt.  Different salt has different masses for the same volume - comparing kosher salt to coarse grind to table salt.  They are all sodium chloride, but based on the size of the crystals involved, you'll get a very different mass for each.  For example, if you are using kosher salt, you need to add nearly 50% more by volume to get the same mass, because of how large the grain size is.
 
Good explanation Eagle!  Can you link the thread where that calculation is quoted from?  I don't remember seeing it before.
 
I was trying to make allowance for any possible increase in nitrite between now and the next water change but I agree it's a good idea to keep salt to a minimum for the benefit of salt-sensitive species.
 
I got a value of 450mg to detoxify 0.5ppm nitrite using your calculation - how did you get 385mg?
(edit - ah no worries, it's because I didn't take 85% of the volume of the tank)
 
Kieran - I will quote TTA who keeps and breeds plecos.  I think he would advise you that it is in the best interests of all the fish to add the salt.
 

TwoTankAmin said:
Just an FYI- the amount of salt one must add to a tank to counteract the effects of nitrite are extremely low. There is almost no fish that cannot tolerate the levels needed for the amount of time that is involved.
 
daizeUK said:
 
Good explanation Eagle!  Can you link the thread where that calculation is quoted from?  I don't remember seeing it before.
 
Not yet, I can't. 
laugh.png
  Its part of the fish-in rescue article that is currently under review by the MOD TEAM.

Here's the entire section on nitrite, which should be made available soon:
 
 
[SIZE=13pt]The Facts About Nitrite[/SIZE]
This too is a problem and it is important to understand how it affects fish in order to know how you can deal with it.
Nitrite enters the bloodstream through the gills and turns the blood to a chocolate-brown color. Hemoglobin, which transports oxygen in the blood, combines with nitrite to form methemoglobin, which is incapable of oxygen transport. Brown blood cannot carry sufficient amounts of oxygen, and affected fish can suffocate despite adequate oxygen concentration in the water. This accounts for the gasping behavior often observed in fish with brown blood disease, even when oxygen levels are relatively high.2
Fortunately, there is an effective way to blunt the harmful effects of elevated nitrite that doesn’t involve changing lots of water- you add salt (sodium chloride) to the water. The chloride in the salt acts to block the ability of nitrite to enter though the gills and thus to cause the harm inside the fish it normally would. So it is possible to manage elevated nitrite over the short term using salt in relatively small amounts.
Sodium chloride (common salt, NaCl) is used to “treat” brown blood disease. Calcium chloride can also be used but is typically more expensive. The chloride portion of salt competes with nitrite for absorption through the gills. Maintaining at least a 10 to 1 ratio of chloride to nitrite in a pond effectively prevents nitrite from entering catfish. 2
 
It should be noted that the Merck Veterinary manual suggests a lower ratio of chloride:
 
In freshwater outdoor ponds, the concentration of Cl– can be increased (by the addition of salt) to a ratio of 6 parts Cl– to 1 part NO2. This will dramatically decrease the percentage of Hgb converted to methemoglobin, resulting in immediate relief to the fish and stopping most further mortality within 24 hr. 3
Since the amount of salt required to produce either 6 or 10 times the chloride as the ppm of nitrite is minimal, this author prefers to use the higher ratio of 10 to 1 in order to be more certain of obtaining the needed relief. One should also be aware that studies indicate that, whether one changes water or uses chloride to counter the effects of nitrite toxicity, it will still take 24-72 hours for nitrite already at work inside fish to be completely eliminated. Preventing further nitrite entering usually solves the problem.
[SIZE=12pt]What Salt to Use[/SIZE]
Plain old table salt is just fine for use here. Do not worry if it says Iodized or if it contains Anti-caking agents. The amount of these in the salt is so minimal you would pickle your fish long before these ingredients would be doing any harm. You can read about this here for the facts about table salt and fish http://www.theaquari...lt_of_the_Earth
 
[SIZE=13pt]Performing Diluted Nitrite Testing[/SIZE]
The problem with dealing with elevated nitrite is that the typical aquarium kits do not go high enough to let us know how much nitrite may really be in any tank. And this makes fish in cycling more complex and more work than fishless. You will likely need to know how to do diluted nitrite tests. For this you need a way to create an accurate mix of your tank water and some amount of pure water, i.e. distilled or reverse osmosis/deionized (ro/di) water. You should be able to find a gallon of distilled water in the supermarket. Some fish stores sell ro/di water. You will need a clean measuring cup as well. You will use this to mix different solutions of tank and pure water to be able to test for nitrite. You do not want to use your tap water for dilution purposes as it will often contain things that can cause test result be inaccurate.
The reason for using a measuring cup is that it is important to get the proportions of the mix as close to dead on as possible. The advantage of measuring using a cup from which you will only use a few ml is that the potential for mixing errors is way less of an issue in 8 ounces than in 5 or 10 ml of water. What you will do is start by making a 50/50 mix (4 ounces each) of tank and pure water. Then you pour 5 ml of this into the little test tube and do the nitrite test. You will then multiply the result of the test by 2 to get the actual ppm in your tank.
However if this 50/50 diluted test result is still at the kit’s maximum level and the test kit reads to a maximum level of 8 ppm or less, you will have to do another further dilution. The easiest way is to start with ¼ cup of tank water and ¾ cup of pure water. Test this mix and multiply the result by 4 this time. Alternatively you can use ½ cup of the initial 50/50 mix and then add ½ cup of pure water to this. The result will be ¼ tank and ¾ pure water either way. If this test is also at the maximum number, don't worry about a further test, just do a huge water change (at least 50%) ASAP. After doing the water change, test for nitrite and then add the required amount of salt to deal with that amount of nitrite.
 
You will need to continue testing for nitrite because any further rise may mean that either water changes are needed and/or that further salt additions are needed.
 
[SIZE=13pt]Calculating How Much Salt to Add[/SIZE]
To add 10 ppm of chloride for every ppm of nitrite in the water, use the following steps:
1. Multiply your nitrite test reading by 10. This will give you the needed mg/l of chloride you need to add.
2. Calculate the actual volume in liters of the water in your tank. If your volume is in gallons you must convert this into liters. (As a rule, using the advertised volume of the tank at about 85% will put you in the right ballpark.)  1 gallon = 3.875 liters
3. Multiply the number in #1 above by the number of liters of water in #2 above to get the total number of mg of  chloride you will need to add.
4. Because salt is roughly 2/3 chloride, you must multiply the number calculated in #3 by 1.5.  You now know how many mg of salt you should add to the water. Dividing this number by 1,000 will convert this amount to grams which are easier to weigh for most people.
5. Do not add the dry salt directly to the tank. Remove some tank water to a container and mix the salt in that, then add the salt water to the tank spreading it around the surface.
 
 
[SIZE=12pt]2[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Nitrite in Fish Ponds[/SIZE]
[SIZE=8pt]June 1997[/SIZE]
Robert M. Durborow[SIZE=8pt]1[/SIZE], David M. Crosby[SIZE=8pt]2 [/SIZE]and Martin W. Brunson[SIZE=8pt]3[/SIZE]
https://srac.tamu.ed...hfactsheet/110/
 
 
[SIZE=12pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The Merck Veterinary Manual for Veterinary Professionals[/SIZE]
http://www.merckmanu...es_of_fish.html
 
Good stuff! :good:

Perhaps the mod team could consider including some advice on salt-sensitive fish into the article for those who are concerned?
 

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