Help with health of plants?

[ColourMeSurprised]

Hi! Apologies if this is the wrong place to be posting this - I was having a little trouble figuring out where I should be putting it.

I'm currently doing a fishless cycle of a 40L tank and have it planted up with some plants recommended by my local Maidenhead Aquatics store. They've been looking pretty good for the most part, then this afternoon I've noticed some of them aren't looking so hot. Any chance someone could help me identify if these are a problem or if it's just bacterial bloom/shock from the new environment?

This first image shows lots of little white specks on the leaves of one of the small Anubias'. Pretty sure there's also a little hitchiker snail on there too - there's a few of those.



The second and third photos show the leaves of the Echinodorus Rubra and Microsorum Pteropus - these are a little hard to see but if you zoom in there's a ton of little white lines on them - almost like little "c"s.



Apologies the photos aren't ideal - if they're really impossible to see even on zooming let me know and I'll see if I can get some better shots.

Thanks!

 

[Essjay 135]

Hi,

The first thing is that anubias and Java fern (Microsorum) should not be planted in the substrate. They have a rhizome - the thick thing that the leaves grow out of - and this rots when placed under the substrate. These two plants are usually grown attached to decor. The thin roots which grow out of the rhizome can go into the substrate but the rhizome must be above it.

How are you doing the fishless cycle? Are you adding ammonia? A lot of plants are sensitive to ammonia so if you are dosing with ammonia this could be the cause. The answer for this is to put the plants into a container of water and put them back in the tnak once the cycle has finished.

It is possible to do something called a plant or silent cycle. With this method, ammonia is not added but the tank is planted and fish can be added once the plants are showing signs of active growth. Plants use ammonia as fertiliser and they don't turn it into nitrite or nitrate. But this method needs a fair number of fasting growing plants, and Java fern and anubias are slow growers. Most species of Echiondorus are fast growers but there's only the one in your tank.
If you were to get a floating plant such as Amazon frogbit or water sprite - or even elodea or hornwort left to float rather than planted - a plants cycle would be possible. But you would need to replace the water to remove any added ammonia first.
Plants also need feeding. Anubias and Java fern and floating plants get their food from the water; with Echinodorus you would also use root tabs, just one placed under the substrate next to the plant and replace every few months. The two best liquid fertilisers are Seachem Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Tank (only that one, there are several Flourishes) and TNC Lite (not TNC complete).

The choice if your - continue with the fishless cycle but move the plants till it has finished, or get some floating plants and fetiliser and wait until the plants are actively growing before buying fish.





Just as a side issue, you have soft water so you need soft water fish

 

[ColourMeSurprised]

Hi!

Dangit. Thank you for this information - at the fish store I specifically asked them what they’d advise to start off with plant-wise, and that I would be planting in gravel. Is the Echinodorus okay planted in the gravel or will that need to be attached to décor, too?

Re: cycling - I’m following this guide so yes, dosing with ammonia. I’ve started seeing small amounts of nitrites this morning (possibly a false positive since it hasn’t been particularly long yet but was going to retest tomorrow to see. I’m using the API master kit so shouldn’t be an inaccurate strip issue) so I’m leaning more towards removing the plants and letting that continue. Seems that a plant or silent cycle might be harder to judge when it’s completed? I quite like the certainty that testing for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates presents.

I do have a couple of moss balls on their way (ordered online) and from what I understand these might be quite good for taking in the ammonia in a plant cycle? What plants would you suggest for rooting in the substrate once it is cycled? I don’t have a huge number of decorations in the tank so would rather not attach 4 separate plants to too few things if at all possible.

I did ask about fertilizer for the plants at the store but they said to let them alone for a while and see how they settle in without, first Looks like the advice was a little less than stellar all around.

If I remove the plants now how should I be keeping them - will they be okay for a time floating without being rooted to a decoration? And will re-adding them be likely to upset the balance of the cycled tank or should that be okay? I assume I should be fertilising them while they’re in this separate container of water too?

Ah, thank you for the info re water hardness! I spoke to someone at the water company on Friday and they were going to get back to me on that early next week, but that helps to know now!

 

[Essjay 135]

I don't live far from you so I know you have soft water - back in 2010 it was 3 dH but as mine has increased a bit since then yours probably has too but not by much. 2010 was the last time Northumbrian Water had a hardness table for the whole region on its website and I downloaded it
I will be interested to know if the water company give you a sensible reply. Last time I emailed them all they did was sent the water quality report which was irrelevant to what I asked.


That fishless cycling method in your link is a bit out of date. It says to add ammonia every time it drops but that will cause so much nitrite that the cycle will stall.
This method was written to prevent nitrite getting that high and ammonia is only added when certain targets have been reached https://www.fishforums.net/threads/cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first.421488/

The echinodrous does need to be planted in the substrate. It's just anubias and microsorum that don't. If you remove them they'll be OK floating in a container of water but if you can keep it warm that would be better than room temperature.
I'll be honest and say I don't know much about plants which are rooted in the substrate as all my plants are the type attached to wood or floating I know that those OK in a container of water but I would wait till someone replies who knows more about plants than me.

 

[ColourMeSurprised]

Ahh makes sense! I can let you know what they say if it's actually useful? Fingers crossed it will be

Ahh that makes sense, thank you - I'll follow that one from now on instead!

Okay great, thanks. I've removed the three anubias and the microsorum and have them in a tub of water. Unfortunately I've no spare heater to keep them warm so will just have to see how they get on in there. The echinodorus is still in the tank for the moment as I've no way of having it planted elsewhere (no spare gravel/big enough tank/etc).

Okay, thanks for the help! I'll wait and see if anyone else can offer advice on plants~

 

[utahfish]

Hi!

Dangit. Thank you for this information - at the fish store I specifically asked them what they’d advise to start off with plant-wise, and that I would be planting in gravel. Is the Echinodorus okay planted in the gravel or will that need to be attached to décor, too?

Re: cycling - I’m following this guide so yes, dosing with ammonia. I’ve started seeing small amounts of nitrites this morning (possibly a false positive since it hasn’t been particularly long yet but was going to retest tomorrow to see. I’m using the API master kit so shouldn’t be an inaccurate strip issue) so I’m leaning more towards removing the plants and letting that continue. Seems that a plant or silent cycle might be harder to judge when it’s completed? I quite like the certainty that testing for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates presents.

I do have a couple of moss balls on their way (ordered online) and from what I understand these might be quite good for taking in the ammonia in a plant cycle? What plants would you suggest for rooting in the substrate once it is cycled? I don’t have a huge number of decorations in the tank so would rather not attach 4 separate plants to too few things if at all possible.

I did ask about fertilizer for the plants at the store but they said to let them alone for a while and see how they settle in without, first Looks like the advice was a little less than stellar all around.

If I remove the plants now how should I be keeping them - will they be okay for a time floating without being rooted to a decoration? And will re-adding them be likely to upset the balance of the cycled tank or should that be okay? I assume I should be fertilising them while they’re in this separate container of water too?

Ah, thank you for the info re water hardness! I spoke to someone at the water company on Friday and they were going to get back to me on that early next week, but that helps to know now!

Good rooted or stem plants for beginners are most hygrophila species, they are fast growers and be grown in lots of different warer. They do well as most stem plants with root tabs and a comprehensive fert for water column like seachem flourish. Hornwort can be planted or floated and is easy grower. Anacharis the same. Crypt species can handle low light and have extensive roots and are medium growth rate. They are mid ground plant. The easiest fastest stem plants though are hornwart, anacharis, and hygro. Id start with those keeping in mind that in a bucket without any ferts and light they wont grow. Putting them in tank will help speed up the cycle as the plants consume ammonia and nitrates.
Put plants in provide root tabs and comprehensive fert add fish enjoy!

 

[ColourMeSurprised]

Hi utahfish!

Sorry, I'm confused - I should have the plants in while using trying to cycle using ammonia or I shouldn't? Essjay was saying that the ammonia could be harming them but you seem to be saying otherwise. Or do you mean that the plants themselves might suffer but that it would speed up the cycle?

Thank you for the suggestions though - I'll definitely look into those!

 

[squidneh]

Hi utahfish!

Sorry, I'm confused - I should have the plants in while using trying to cycle using ammonia or I shouldn't? Essjay was saying that the ammonia could be harming them but you seem to be saying otherwise. Or do you mean that the plants themselves might suffer but that it would speed up the cycle?

Thank you for the suggestions though - I'll definitely look into those!

If you get the faster growing plants, you can "skip" the cycle altogether. It's called a silent cycle or plant cycle. What you would do is add all of your plants and wait for signs of growth. Then add the first group of fish (as a quick example if you were going to get 10 neon tetras and 6 cory, you could start with the 6 cory) and check your water to ensure ammonia and nitrite remain 0. Then a week or two later, you could add the cory and again, keep checking water. The plants would be able to handle the ammonia from your fish while your beneficial bacteria is developing as the tank ages, meaning you don't need to actively cycle the tank.

So, like essjay said - you can either cycle the tank without plants, like you are currently doing it seems? Or you can heavily plant the tank with fast growing plants, and start adding in your fish once you see that the plants are healthy and growing. You want to wait to be sure the plants are healthy and growing, because if you add fish and then the plants die, you'll then have a fish-in cycle which is no bueno.

 

[Essjay 135]

Anacharis the same

That's what Americans call elodea.

Re plants and adding ammonia, when I said that it was OK a few years ago I was told it wasn't. I've only done fishless cycles in tanks with silk or plastic plants so I don't have any experience of ammonia and live plants.

 

[utahfish]

Hi utahfish!

Sorry, I'm confused - I should have the plants in while using trying to cycle using ammonia or I shouldn't? Essjay was saying that the ammonia could be harming them but you seem to be saying otherwise. Or do you mean that the plants themselves might suffer but that it would speed up the cycle?

Thank you for the suggestions though - I'll definitely look into those!

Im saying if you al ready have the plants put them in stop using the ammonia and go buy some more plants and then simply add fish.
Your plants wont fare well in buckets for the 1 to 2 weeks it takes to cycle a tank. If there are no fish in the tank and there are plants there is no reason to continue using the ammonia. Even though the fern and anubius are slow growers they will still consume ammonia. No reason to take them out other than if one is worried about ammonia killing them but with plants in there is no reason for ammonia dosing. Its one or the other and since you already have plants and the ammonia bottle wont die in a bucket id suggest using the plants not the ammonia and getting more plants before adding fish.

 

[Byron]

I do not recommend "cycling" when live plants are present. Moving the plants about is only going to set them back further, and they may well die. Plant them in the aquarium, in fresh tap water (drain the tank completely if you have added any artificial ammonia), use a comprehensive liquid fertilizer--and a comprehensive substrate tab for the swords, one per plant--and when the plants show signs of growth, you are ready to consider fish.

Plants, especially fast growers of which floating plants are the best, can take up a lot of natural ammonia/ammonium, certainly all that any number of fish could ever produce provided the tank is not overstocked (the water volume/fish load/plant load must be reasonably in balance). But adding artificial ammonia is a very different thing. I just do not see the risk being worth it. In my 30 years I have used live plants (and always some floating plants) in new tanks with fish and never had issues.

The cycle will still establish behind the scenes, but it will be harmless.

 

[ColourMeSurprised]

Okay, so it’s sounding as though general opinion is go with the silent cycle. Thanks folks.

So let’s say I:
- Leave in the echinodorus rubra.
- Order and add one elodea densa (anacharis) and one hygrophila corymbosa.
- Add the two moss balls I already have on their way.
- Get as many of the anubius and microsorum as I can get rooted to what décor there is.
- Add in fert tabs for the rooted ones and liquid fert for all.

Would this be sufficient to make a silent cycle possible? This wouldn’t be overcrowding a 40L tank?

And I should be doing a full water change if doing this? I've already moved out the plants that needed to be anchored to decor unfortunately - did that once it was advised. I can change out the water for fresh dechlorinated tapwater now, and add them back in. Am I right in thinking that the best way to convince the anubius and microsorum to root to the decor is typing it gently on with thread?

 

[Byron]

Okay, so it’s sounding as though general opinion is go with the silent cycle. Thanks folks.

So let’s say I:
- Leave in the echinodorus rubra.
- Order and add one elodea densa (anacharis) and one hygrophila corymbosa.
- Add the two moss balls I already have on their way.
- Get as many of the anubius and microsorum as I can get rooted to what décor there is.
- Add in fert tabs for the rooted ones and liquid fert for all.

Would this be sufficient to make a silent cycle possible? This wouldn’t be overcrowding a 40L tank?

And I should be doing a full water change if doing this? I've already moved out the plants that needed to be anchored to decor unfortunately - did that once it was advised. I can change out the water for fresh dechlorinated tapwater now, and add them back in. Am I right in thinking that the best way to convince the anubius and microsorum to root to the decor is typing it gently on with thread?

Yes to the five points. Also try to get a floating plant. Not all plants will thrive in the same tank for various reasons, so sometimes it is a bit experimental, it depends upon the lighting and the nutrients.

Moving the Anubias is less of an issue as it is not rooted in the substrate, but substrate-rooted plants do not like being moved. If you have added any artificial ammonia, then drain the tank and re-fill with fresh tap water. Never mind about conditioner, the plants can use the chlorine as a nutrient anyway. Before fish go in, down the road, you can use a dechlorinator though if you only have chlorine and not chloramine this will be unnecessary because chlorine dissipates out of the water in 24 hours anyway. Chloramine will not though.

You can tie Anubias plants to chunks of rock or wood or decor, use a black cotton thread or fishing line,; I try to find a crevice to gently poke the rhizome in.

 

[ColourMeSurprised]

Great, thanks! With a floating plant do I not run the risk of it blocking light to the others if it grows too well? Since my lights are all directly above. Or should I just make sure to keep it relatively pruned?

 

[Byron]

Great, thanks! With a floating plant do I not run the risk of it blocking light to the others if it grows too well? Since my lights are all directly above. Or should I just make sure to keep it relatively pruned?

Floating plants do lessen the light, but this is better for the fish, and usually not an issue. Low-light plants like Anubias will not be hampered. The swords should be OK, mine are, but keeping the floaters in check also helps.

Good floating plants are Water Sprite (this is ideal if you can find it), Frogbit, Water Lettuce, and some stem plants grow nice left floating.