Help - What To Do With My Ph 8.5 Tap Water!?

[T4NY4]

Hi

I have recently moved flats in London and the pH of my new flat's tap water is approaching 8.5!
Most of my fish appear to be ok but a few of them have died very suddenly - going from fine to dead within a matter of hours - since moving flats.
Tonight my beloved Siamese fighting fish died. This morning he was absolutely fine.
I have checked ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and all levels are fine - 0.1, 0.1 and 10mg/l respectively.
Only the pH is too high.
I have read that it is extremely hard to lower the pH due to the buffering capability of the water.
The tank is 105L and i don't relish the idea of buying large quantities of purified water all the time but I will if I have to.

Can anyone give me any advice?


Thanks

 

[Gillymore]

I am very new here..but I believe that fish can tolerate water at the alkaline end of the scale rather better than the acidic end of the scale.....BUT ....most fish don't like a sudden change from varying values...even between 2 or 3 values of ph.

Don't know what the ph was prior to your move.

A possible remedy for a "quick fix" could be to buy a bottle of "Alk Down" to bring the level down quickly.

 

[Mikaila31]

I don't agree with that, it is best not to mess with the ph. Especially with those ph increasers and decreasers. Fish are happier with a ph that is high and stable, than lower and constantly fluctuating. Their are a few natural ways to lower ph, like adding peat moss to the filter, using crushed coral, injecting co2, and using driftwood. These will gradually lower the ph and it won't fluctuate as much.

Your PH is quite high. But before you work on lowering it, what did you use to test it. Did you use those strip tests or the liquid ones? If you used the strip tests they tend to be inaccurate, so you will want to retest it with a good liquid test kit to make sure you actually have high ph.

Also your fish may not even be dieing because of the ph. Your ammonia and Nitrite levels are not fine, They should be at zero. These are going to be more harmful to your fish than the high PH, both are toxic. They can easily kill the fish if they get too high. Again what did you use to test these? Also how long has the tank been setup at your new place? Ammonia and nitrite normally mean that the tank is cycling. Did you replace the filter media when you moved the tank? and what fish do you have in the tank?

Cheers,
Mikaila31

 

[T4NY4]

I don't agree with that, it is best not to mess with the ph. Especially with those ph increasers and decreasers. Fish are happier with a ph that is high and stable, than lower and constantly fluctuating. Their are a few natural ways to lower ph, like adding peat moss to the filter, using crushed coral, injecting co2, and using driftwood. These will gradually lower the ph and it won't fluctuate as much.

Ok - I have some driftwood but I'll look into getting some peat for the filter

Your PH is quite high. But before you work on lowering it, what did you use to test it. Did you use those strip tests or the liquid ones? If you used the strip tests they tend to be inaccurate, so you will want to retest it with a good liquid test kit to make sure you actually have high ph.

I used the Interpet Easy Test kit which is tablets that you put in a sample of water.

Also your fish may not even be dieing because of the ph. Your ammonia and Nitrite levels are not fine, They should be at zero. These are going to be more harmful to your fish than the high PH, both are toxic. They can easily kill the fish if they get too high. Again what did you use to test these? Also how long has the tank been setup at your new place? Ammonia and nitrite normally mean that the tank is cycling.
Did you replace the filter media when you moved the tank?

My ammonia and nitrite levels have always been slightly high and it hasn't caused a problem before. I tested for these with the same kit as for the pH. The tank has been up and running in my new place for 4 months. I have been losing fish since then. When I moved I kept 70% of the water from the tank, and also all the gravel and plants etc so the tank was pretty fine and didn't cycle after the move. The filter media was kept in a bag filled with tank water and was reused in the new flat. Since the move I have been changing roughly 15% of the water per week to try to reduce the ammonia and nitrite to zero but it never gets below 0.1. I have tried using Nutrafin's Cycle which is supposed to help with the maturing of the tank. I add some of this whenever I change the water. In the last 2 weeks I have been changing around 10% of the water every 2/3 days to se what effect that has but I'm not sure if it's doing anything much.

and what fish do you have in the tank?

Since the Siamese died we now have:
3 Opaline Gourami
1 Pearl Gourami
1 Weather Loach ( Irealise that this is primarily a cold water fish but she has been with us the longest of all the fish and seems extremely healthy and happy)
5 Cardinal Tetras
1 Sailfin Molly
3 Guppies

The temperature is constant at 26 degrees and the tank lights are on about 12 hours a day.
I have some stones, 4 plants and an air stone.

In response to the first post the pH at the old flat was lower at around 7.5.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

 

[LolaLouie]

oops said something already picked up on!

 

[stang1]

I'm afraid the Interpet test kit isn't very accurate, you would be best using a liquid one.
Although you say your fish were fine with the ammonia and nitrite reading, most cannot tolerate it. They may not die straightaway but it will shorten their lifespan if left to build up.
As Mikaila suggested, bogwood or peat will help bring the Ph down more naturally. PH adjusters aren't a good idea as they can cause too many fluctuations in the PH and lead to more problems.

 

[Mikaila31]

I think you should get some different test kits, I've never heard of a test kit like that. Preferably liquid ones, Even if you had ammonia in your tap, a cycled tank should be able to process it quickly. So retesting the water with a good liquid test kit is the first thing I suggest doing.

I still don't think it is the ph that is killing off the fish. The betta (fighting fish) would most likely be the last fish you would lose, with the tetras and guppies probably being the first. And after 4 months they should of adjusted, if it was the ph they would of died within hours to days of being added to the tank. I had some livebearers shipped to me, they spent two days in the mail, then I spent about 5 hours acclimating them to my water with a ph of 7.6 from water with a ph of 6.0. That acclimation was a bit overkill IMO and could of been a lot shorter, but I didn't lose any. Too quick of an change can lead to shock, which will normally kill the fish pretty quickly.

So, retest with a better test kit and see what your results are then .

 

[T4NY4]

Thanks for all your advice - I'll get some new kit and see how it goes.

 

[backtotropical]

Your ammonia and Nitrite levels are not fine, They should be at zero. These are going to be more harmful to your fish than the high PH, both are toxic. They can easily kill the fish.

A good point. Any detectable ammonia or nitrite indicates that your filter is not doing its job properly. Even very small quantities of ammonia or nitrite can be very detrimental to a fish's health. Ammonia and nitrite should always be 0.

I suggest that you should address this problem first before worrying about your pH. A pH of 8.5 suggests that your water is probably hard and that will mean that your pH is stable. It's really nothing to worry about, but detectable ammonia and nitrite is.

Firstly, test your tap water for ammonia and nitrite to rule out the possibility that it is coming from the tap. Assuming the tap water is ok (only nil values for both ammonia and nitrite can be deemed ok), do a 50% water change. Wait for 1 hour, then do another 50% water change. Then test ammonia and nitrite in the tank again. Post your results for the tap water, and for the tank after the 50% changes on here and we'll be able to help you further.

In addition to this, i recommend that you increase your water change routine to 25% at least twice per week in the meantime.

Also, which filter are you using? How often do you clean the filter? and do you dechlorinate your water for water changes?

Cheers

BTT

 

[Osian]

I dont really know if tablet test kits are any less accurate than liquid ones, but i wouldnt imagin there a lot worse. I know that the swimming pool i used to work in, and all the counties pools used tables to test their water, and those kits where around £450 each, and then you just buy tablets. I understand they test for other things like Total chlorine / pH / Total Alkalinity / Calcium Hardness / Cyanuric Acid / Copper so maybe the liquid ones are better for what aquariums test for, but for the ph level i'd have thought the tablets would be fairly spot on. I'm assuming that these are the ones you drop in and crush with a little rod to mix it in.

 

[beany_bot]

Firstly if your tap water is pH8.5 i wouldnt even wash my hands with it !! let alone put fish in it, thats seriously alkaline. you could put an acid buffer in but hmmmmmmmmmmm dont know if thats safe prob not.

 

[Anguilla82]

you could always change your stock and go down the malawi cichlid route?
think they're ok in high pH water.

 

[waterdrop]

I dont really know if tablet test kits are any less accurate than liquid ones, but i wouldnt imagin there a lot worse. I know that the swimming pool i used to work in, and all the counties pools used tables to test their water, and those kits where around £450 each, and then you just buy tablets. I understand they test for other things like Total chlorine / pH / Total Alkalinity / Calcium Hardness / Cyanuric Acid / Copper so maybe the liquid ones are better for what aquariums test for, but for the ph level i'd have thought the tablets would be fairly spot on. I'm assuming that these are the ones you drop in and crush with a little rod to mix it in.

Good point Osian, but I would be suspicious that perhaps the tablet kit from LFS is nowhere near as accurate as the expensive swimming pool ones you are remembering. pH is a relatively easy test for any type of kit but for the others it gets a little harder. I also think given the situation described here that if T4NY4 could pick up a kit with qualities more known to TFF members here then the repeatability of advice from us could be more helpful -- the information and insight itself perhaps being more valuable than the detailed numbers per se.

T4NY4, there are probably 3 or 4 good liquid-based reagent master kits available for freshwater use. The Hagen mini-master one is good but lacks a Nitrate test I believe. I think Red Sea may make a freshwater kit but I don't know the model name. The one most frequently used by members here is the API Freshwater Master Test Kit. In the long run it may also be helpful for your situation for you to have a GH/KH kit too, although this will be of less importance.

Firstly if your tap water is pH8.5 i wouldnt even wash my hands with it !! let alone put fish in it, thats seriously alkaline. you could put an acid buffer in but hmmmmmmmmmmm dont know if thats safe prob not.

I believe water-based pH 8.5 is not terribly uncommon and often is accompanied with hard water that serves as a strong buffer. I believe BTT is correct that this issue should be moved to second priority in importance and first the ammonia and nitrite situation should be carefully sorted out. It can be hard to believe, especially when you've experienced a stable situation for a while, but these toxins are still the real culprits that underlie most episodes of fish death I think.

T4NY4, I think once you come home with the good kit and read the instructions, you should test your tap water and clearly post the parameters here in your thread. Re-read the actions that BTT gives you and start testing and posting tank results and other observations here too. It shouldn't take to long to get this sorted out.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Texas_Wolf]

We're on well water, and our pH is around 8.5ish, and I use a liquid test kit.

I've kept guppies, tiger barbs, various tetras, gouramis, cories and platies all alive and well for years.
The only thing I've found that don't work well are the fancy tail type bettas. I have a CT and don't get me wrong he's still alive and fine...but the pH does a number on his fins.

You just need to remember that your pH is probably really different from the store your getting them from(since its so high) so it may take you a few hours to acclimate them to the pH as opposed to just 1 hour.