Help My Gourmai

[rebrn]

Hello, OK not sure if I should have posted this here or in the Gourmai section, as I am not 100% sure she is even ill.

First the situation is this, my female has from the beginning had some odd swimming patterns, completely vertical, in a C- Shape or on her side, this originally only occurred when the male was around. Confirmed that this is normal courting behaviour and not to be concerned. Well a few days later, I noticed that these odd swimming patterns occurred even when the male was not around. I didn't worry too much, as when I noticed this behaviour and went to the tank to get a better look she swam away from me completely normal. Well twice now in the last week I woke up and thought she was dead. In both instances she was completely vertical (head to the surface) between the side of the tank and a plant and she was not moving. The first time she was near the surface of the water, the second time (today) she was near the bottom. I put my hand up to the side of the tank, normally she would run from that, and she did not move. When I got the net out and put it into the water she moved and swam away normally. Other than that she seems fine, no swelling, no spots, no worms etc. The only other thing is I am not 100% sure she is eating. I have only ever seen her eat flakes (or even bloodworms) twice, and both times she has spit them out. I have however, seen her nibble on plants (artificial) and ornaments, I can only assume she is nibbling on algae. Despite this she does seem to look a good weight, so perhaps she is eating food that has fallen to the bottom. So in a nut shell:

Symptoms: odd swimming behaviour even when the male is not around, possibly not eating (or not getting enough) I also think she might be a little lethargic, however, the male seems this way too at times, and I might just be thinking this in comparison to the tank mates (zebra danio and cherry barbs)

Tank Stats: Ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 5 pH 7.4 temp 75-77 F (gets warmer when lights are on.

Food: Flakes or Crisps - occasional blood worms or dried shrimp as treats (maybe once a week)

Appearance - normal picture at bottom

Chemicals used - only water conditioner

Last Water change: January 1, 2010 - 30%


Photos - the second photo is not as clear however it shows her in the vertical position - also when I was taking the pictures she became very very active - does not like the camera, also the pictures show her at the top of the tank, but when I found her this morning she was at the bottom of the tank.

I realize this might just be me panicking, but I want to be sure. I do have an isolation tank I can put her in, however, the sponge filter I have for the QT NOT cycled yet so I would perfer to leave her in the tank with the cycled filter, but will move her if necessary.

All the other fish are fine.

Thanks

 

[WILDER]

Feed some shelled peas.
Freeze dried foods can lead to constipation and swim bladder problems.
Try and introduce frozen foods like brime shrimp and daphnia. Also some green veg into there diet.

 

[rebrn]

Thanks, I feed some peas this morning. I will try it again this evening. When you use peas, do they have to be fresh, or can I use thawed frozen peas? I used fresh this morning, but it would be so much easier if I could use frozen.

Thanks

 

[WILDER]

Frozen peas are fine.
Cook frozen peas in boiling water for a few minutes,let cool down and pop out of shell.
Mush into small peices and add to the tank.

If no improvement after the peas get back to the board.

 

[rebrn]

Will do thanks

 

[rebrn]

Hello, well I am not sure the peas worked. The female is still swimming oddly, all be it not as often. I am also not sure how much she actually ate, I saw her pick some up twice but then spat them out. I turned the lights off after giving the peas, as I think she is more likely to eat when the lights are off. Anyway what is weird about the swimming is she doesn't do it all the time, she can often be swimming normally quite a bit. It almost seems as if this odd swimming patterns occur at rest, or when she has gone to the surface for air (I just read that they often go to the surface to gulp air ... news to me, at least now I know the surface swimming is normal behaviour). Anyway, I am not sure if these odd patterns in her swimming is normal (I have never seen the male do it) or not. I think she did eat some peas, but as I said before, I have never really seen her eat, I think she must as her weight looks fine, I think (pics above), be but not sure.

Also, for future reference, is there something other than peas that can be used, they are so messy.

 

[WILDER]

Peas are abit messy but you have to mush them up for smaller fish.
Just remove the uneaten ones.

Have you seen her go to the toilet. If so what does it look like.
Also check her anus to see if its enlarged or red and inflamed.

Can you issolate her and try and internal bacteria med.

 

[rebrn]

I have cleaned out the peas, not much left though, they really liked them, even my Betta (in another tank) who is really picky gobbled them up like it was his last meal. Anyway, I have not seen the female gourami in the "act" of pooping, but there is poo on the bottom of the tank. Usually the poo is either reddish brown, greenish brown or a yellowish brown (my normal flake food is red, green and yellow, so no surprises there) today I noticed some of the fish pooing a solid green colour, I am assuming that is from the peas.

I have only caught her in her odd positions once today and it was right after I turned on the light this morning. So maybe she just rests/sleeps that way, my friends angel fish that does that. I could isolate her, but was trying to avoid that as the sponge filter is not cycled yet (I have it in the large tank, where the gourmai is to cycle, and that is where I will keep it when not in use). I suppose I could take the cycled filter from my Betta tank for a few days to use on the QT tank but that will leave him with out a filter, so not the best option. But I could potentially isolate her and just do daily water changes on the QT tank.

There is nothing unusual about her appearance, no lesions, spots, swellings, enlargements, redness etc, she looks completely normal. The only medicine I have here is quick cure, which is for ick and other protozoan parasites, but not sure if that is the best thing to treat with, or what I should buy to treat with. The odd thing is that she has had this odd swimming patterns from day one. At first it was only when the male was around, or at least I only noticed it when the male was around, but after about a week, when the gourmais worked out the pecking order and the male started backing off of her a little (at first he was constantly bugging her, lasted a little less than a week) I noticed the behaviour when the male wasn't around. Essentially she has had the behaviour since the beginning, approximately 2 weeks, so I am really not sure if this is an illness or just normal female Gourmai behaviour. I mean other than the odd swimming patterns she seems fine. As for the possibility of not eating, again this could just be her. She is very very shy, and if you even approach the tank too quickly she takes off, so she may be eating from the bottom when the lights are off. I know my Betta is like that, he just won't eat if he thinks someone is watching, so may be she is the same. I don't think she looks overly skinny, she seem to be roughly the same size as the male, so I am thinking she has to be eating, because it has been 2 weeks since I got them and she doesn't seem to have lost weight.

I am not sure if this is just me being overly cautious, or if there really is something wrong with her. She does seem very slightly more active since the peas, but again, both the male and female Gourmai seem lethargic to me in comparison to the tank mates (zebra danio and cherry barbs), so I really don't think this was ever an issue, they are just slower calmer fish. I don't think it is from the zebras or the cherries bothering her, because they tend to swim in the opposite direction when the gourmais swim near them. If anything, I would say the male gourmai is the one bugging her, he usually pesters her until she swims to the other end of the tank, then he leaves her alone. But I really don't think this is the issue either, as she has no physical signs of illness (other then the odd swimming, which sometime she does and sometimes she doesn't). She has no lesions, redness, swellings, spots, no clamp fins, she looks totally normal.

Like I said this is all probably me being overly cautious, but it has been going on now for 2 weeks, and twice in the last week I thought she was dead, so I thought I should check.

On a side note, how often can I feed peas to the fish. Last night I decided to feed everyone (3 tanks) peas, I figured it wouldn't hurt them to have it. Anyway they all really really loved the peas, it was like a feeding frenzy in my tanks, so I thought I could use peas as treats rather than the freeze dried foods, but how often is too often? Also is there any other veggies I can give them? I don't have live plants, so I was thinking I should probably supplement the fibre "ruffage" in another ways.

Thanks

 

[WILDER]

I feed peas twice a week. it stop the fish getting constipation.

Odd swimming manor can be injury, birth defect of the swim bladder, internal parasites, bacterial, or external parasites, constipation, or gulped to much air.

I think I would treat her with an internal bacteria med to see if that helps.

 

[rebrn]

Thanks, I was thinking twice a week for the peas but wanted to be sure. I will pick up some bacterial meds today as I don't have any here. Is there any particular one I should be looking for? Also, I have the QT tank set up, but as that filter is not fully cycled how often should I be doing water changes? I know normally, in a fishless cycle, it would be at least once a day, but with meds in the water, should I be doing changes less frequently? Finally, would I be better to treat the entire tank, if it is bacteria won't the entire tank be effected? Although no other fish are showing symptoms.

Thanks

 

[WILDER]

It's up to you if you medicate the whole tank. But if only one fish is ill it's best to issolate and treat.

Test water daily and do water changes if you have too.

Uk. Anti internal bacteria med by interpet.
United States. Maracyn, Maracyn two, or maracyn plus.
If in issolation you can also use antibiotics like tetracycline, but not in the main tank as they wipe the beneifical bacteria out in the filter.

 

[BlackWidow]

Wilder is right, treat for internal bacccy infection. I had an exact Gourami like yours who did the same thing swimming at the top gasping for air when all the other fish were not. And my gourmai stopped eating for like a 2 weeks before dying. Soon after MY BIG Angel died to of the same symptoms. I did notice when it was dead that its stomach was quite Bloated with the Scales slightly raised like a pinecone!, Which I believe is a symptom of internal baccy infections.
MY ADVICE would be to treat the Gourami as wilder has said if no change after a week, your best putting the fish out of its misery (before it infects other fish! ) then Dose your Tank with Melafix or other anti internal bacteria medicine to wipeout any remaining disease in the tank. Because the Last thing you want is for it to jump to another Fish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good Luck

 

[rebrn]

Ok so I have isolated her in a 10 gallon tank and added the first dose of Maracyn two, I also bought some Tetracyclin by the LFS and the Maracyn two instructions not to use the two togethor, but I have it on hand just in case. So we will see how she does. The good news is now that she is by her self, I have seen her poo quite a few times now and it appears to be normal (a greenish brown - probably from the peas). I did give her some food but have not seen her eat yet. Also I have no plants in the isolation tank, nor any substrate. Is that going to be a problem. I have some left over sand I can put in there, but as this tank will only ever be in use if I have a sick fish I was not planning to add any substrate. Also should I add a plant in there for her, or will she be ok with out it. I have the tank on my desk so I can keep a close watch on her and I have a thin sheet to cover the tank with so she doesn't feel so exposed, but wasn't sure if that would be enough. I can add a plant if needed.

Thanks and will up date status tomorrow.

Edit: Upon closer inspection of her poo it is actually a beige colour - similar to the colour of the flakes, so she must be eating, just not doing it while I am watching.

 

[WILDER]

Ok.
Issolations tanks don't need substrate or plants.
Just an ornament she likes so she can hide if she wants.

 

[rebrn]

OK great thanks. I think she is OK with out the ornament, I have the tank covered on 3 sides with a sheet, and I cover the front of it at night, I think that helps her feel comfortable since there is nothing in there except the bear minimum.

She seems to be about the same, this morning when I checked on her she was normal, position wise, completely horizontal in the water (normal fish position). When she started to swim she seemed fine but is now resting buy the filter and is ever so slightly leaned to her right side. The good news is that I know for sure she is eating, because all of the food I put in there was gone this morning. So she obviously ate during the night when no one was looking. The bad news is now my male is sulking, I think he misses her.

My other worry was the filter I have for the iso tank. As mentioned before, the filter was not completely cycled so I didn't use it, I have a spare tetra whisper 10 in there. But it was also brand new, but I keep 2 spare mesh bags in my large tank, I have them in case I ever need to use carbon, but keep them in the filter empty when not in use, I figured I had a little extra room in the filter (not enough for anything major) so mide as well put them in there as extra surface for bacteria. Anyway I pulled them out and put them in the Tetra with another sponge (new), it seems to be working the nitrites this morning were 0, the ammonia was slightly there a very very very pale green, just a tiny hint, definitely less than 0.25. Actually I didn't even notice the green hint until I emptied the test tube into the sink. So I think it is OK. I am trying to avoid water changes simply because the med is in the water. But I will check it again later this evening.

I know it is hard to say for sure, but on average, how long does it take before I would notice a change (ie. if the med worked). The maycan 2 is a 5 day treatment.

Thanks