Help For A Choice Of Fish And Algie

[seanhthemackem]

hi new to the forum after seeing what its like, thought you'd all be able to help.

i've got a 40L tank with water thats been in there about 4-5 months and all seems to be going well

only a few problems, there seems to be alot of algie or something growing on my rock and the plants, spoke to fried who thinks its because its near my window and sunlight (now keeping curtains closed). any idea's about what to do to keep it down or whats causing it??

the other thing is that when starting i think the fish store trying to get money told me there'd be plenty of space for fish and recomended 10 lepard damios to go with a few neon tetras?? i think thats way to much looking back what do you all think?

and next time what fish should i go for to provide a colorfull and interesting display in a 40 L tank?

wish i'd found this site months ago!

ANY help would be good

thanks. Sean

 

[youngfisher]

Have you cycled your tank? - And sunlight can cause algea, but fish will nibble on it I believe

 

[seanhthemackem]

Have you cycled your tank? - And sunlight can cause algea, but fish will nibble on it I believe

thanxs for the fast reply

by cycling do you mean water changes? i do that but the problem still goes on

these fish just aint interested in eating that stuff, maybe a cat fish would be better since bottom feeder??

and do you think that tank is over stocked?

Sean

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Sean and welcome to TFF!

"Cycling" in the hobbyist world here means a different thing. You can get up to speed on this subject by reading a number of the topics you'll find in the Beginners Resource Center up top here in the beginners section. Your answer indicates you didn't know about cycling but that happens to a lot of people. Whether or not your tank is cycled now can be determined by use of a liquid-reagent-based test kit along with the reading already mentioned and by asking questions here.

Major factors having to do with algae are the wattage and type of your lights, the number of hours you run them, the water flow in your tank and your tank maintenance. Even when our test kits indicate "zero" ppm ammonia in the water, there is always ammonia flowing from the gills of our fish and from the ammonia production by heterotrophic bacteria which are processing the excess food, fish waste and plant debris. If the movement and distribution of water flow about the tank is insufficient to always clear out small dead pockets, then this ammonia can serve as a trigger for alge. The algae will flourish if they find excess plant nutrients that haven't been used up by the main plant population.

The actual growth (as opposed to number of plants) is an important factor determining whether all the plant nutrients in a tank will get used up or be left behind to feed algae. For example, a densely planted tank with 70% of the substrate or more planted and with balanced light and careful application of nutrients (fertilizers and carbon) will be an environment where algae will find it very difficult to find any leftover nutrients on which to feed if they've been triggered, so one would rarely see algae develop in that situation.

Hope this helps,
~~waterdrop~~

 

[Dave Spencer]

The actual growth (as opposed to number of plants) is an important factor……

This is quite an interesting point for people first starting a planted tank. I always recommend that a first timer to “high tech” 75% fills their tank with fast growing stems. A lot of people who fail to do this experience major algae issues. With a bit of experience on how to control the light, and nailing the CO2 from day one, it is possible to start a successful tank on a low plant mass.

...determining whether all the plant nutrients in a tank will get used up or be left behind to feed algae. For example, a densely planted tank with 70% of the substrate or more planted and with balanced light and careful application of nutrients (fertilizers and carbon) will be an environment where algae will find it very difficult to find any leftover nutrients on which to feed if they've been triggered, so one would rarely see algae develop in that situation.

Dosing fertilisers isn`t the science you possibly think it is WD. Under EI dosing, I add 20ppm NO3 at water change, and 5ppm every other day until the next water change. PO4 is dosed at 3ppm at water change, and 1ppm added every other day. I currently dose traces at around twice the recommended which seems to help in keeping my Anubias sp looking healthy. The whole dosing process takes a cumulative three minutes out of my week. No testing is carried out because I know what is going in, and have a rough idea of what my plants are taking out. Most of all, plant health and algae are the big indicators.

To avoid having to constantly experience algae or plant deficiencies as indicators, EI has us dosing ferts in excess of plant requirements. This excess, however, is not utilised by algae in a healthy planted environment, no matter how much more excess ferts are added additional to EI levels. The plants can`t be “outcompeting” the algae for ferts as there is always an excess available to the algae. What the process actually is that keeps the algae suppressed is undetermined, but a good CO2 level and fert distribution are major factors.

Dave.

 

[seanhthemackem]

wow guys thanks for the information, alo of stuff i had no idea and will be reading up on it

just went to the shop today and got myself a 106L tank and will be staring that soon, will try to get it all sorted this time, brother taking mine and after i get mine sorted will be taking fish off him, so any ideas about coulorfull/interesting display for him? any ideas welcome

thanx again for the information. why didn't i know about this site before!

sean

 

[waterdrop]

The actual growth (as opposed to number of plants) is an important factor……

This is quite an interesting point for people first starting a planted tank. I always recommend that a first timer to “high tech” 75% fills their tank with fast growing stems. A lot of people who fail to do this experience major algae issues. With a bit of experience on how to control the light, and nailing the CO2 from day one, it is possible to start a successful tank on a low plant mass.

I'm going to happily take this as an instance where I've gotten an idea right!

...determining whether all the plant nutrients in a tank will get used up or be left behind to feed algae. For example, a densely planted tank with 70% of the substrate or more planted and with balanced light and careful application of nutrients (fertilizers and carbon) will be an environment where algae will find it very difficult to find any leftover nutrients on which to feed if they've been triggered, so one would rarely see algae develop in that situation.

Dosing fertilisers isn`t the science you possibly think it is WD. Under EI dosing, I add 20ppm NO3 at water change, and 5ppm every other day until the next water change. PO4 is dosed at 3ppm at water change, and 1ppm added every other day. I currently dose traces at around twice the recommended which seems to help in keeping my Anubias sp looking healthy. The whole dosing process takes a cumulative three minutes out of my week. No testing is carried out because I know what is going in, and have a rough idea of what my plants are taking out. Most of all, plant health and algae are the big indicators.

To avoid having to constantly experience algae or plant deficiencies as indicators, EI has us dosing ferts in excess of plant requirements. This excess, however, is not utilised by algae in a healthy planted environment, no matter how much more excess ferts are added additional to EI levels. The plants can`t be “outcompeting” the algae for ferts as there is always an excess available to the algae. What the process actually is that keeps the algae suppressed is undetermined, but a good CO2 level and fert distribution are major factors.

Dave.

I know. I tend to to exaggerate the details and make things sound complicated with my writing when its on a subject I want to keep learning more about and refining. It can do a disservice to others.

I have, in fact, been attempting to do EI on Oliver's tank and its certainly not "hard." I really like how the weekly water change works as good practice for both the fishkeeping world and the EI process. More on my EI in a minute...

About the undetermined process that keeps algae suppressed, I really agree with you in that the things we've been saying here on TFF seem to agree, in my reading, with many other plant sites and other sources as seeming to shape up as: Firstly a strong healthy growth of plants going on (to the tune of 70-75% or more of the tank, to put an inaccurate but helpful visual indicator on it), secondly a sufficient carbon uptake by these plants (possibly hard to do with liquid carbon, but the jury is still out on this for me, I'm trying...) and thirdly enough water distribution/movement to eliminate micro-pockets of ammonia as you guys have been preaching for years (A koralia one is still in my plans for this, as my 5x seems insufficient.)

OK, back to my EI (since I've thoroughly hijacked Sean's thread, sorry Sean!), I'm in the USA of course, making it hard if not impossible to get TPN+, and I happened upon a firesale at a great LFS an hour away from me and was able to pick up a ton of Seachem liquid ferts. really cheap, so what I've been doing is trying to study the makeup of these and then back-compute the quantities of each plant nutrient that these will put into my tank when I dose x amount of them. I've figured out a scheme involving various capfuls and "single-thread-of-a-cap" dosings spread out over the week that I think are working about right. The stupid thing I do to myself is sometimes start to run out of something and start lowering the correct amount, just to stretch out my supply, really stupid I know and I have no excuse.. One real "enlightenment" now that I've had for some time is that I think I and I'm sure many beginners underestimate how "sterile" there new tanks are for plants. The plants really need a lot to eat!! Once you really get to doing it you get used to it but I think many beginners would be shocked at how much fertilizer you really need to put in to give the plants a fair go!

My next experiment is that I've been under-doing my Excel and I'm going to get in a big bottle and start fully or slightly over doing it and see what difference that makes. I really rather enjoy attempting to do one small change at a time so I can watch closely for an effect if possible, still that's hard to do in practice.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Dave Spencer]

I know. I tend to to exaggerate the details and make things sound complicated with my writing when its on a subject I want to keep learning more about and refining. It can do a disservice to others.

On the contrary. You will be a mod in no time.


I read about plants outcompeting algae for nutrients so many times on this forum, and I wish this notion would just go away. I can grow algae in very pure demineralised water. Alga occupy a different part of the aquatic environment to plants. Alga are opportunists that move in where plants fail. They are not nutrient limited.

While we are at it, I would love to see "heavy root feeders" disappear off the face of the earth too. And, I wish people wouldn`t recommend plants to "mop up" nitrates too.

I am relying on you to carry the torch WD.

Bye, Dave.

 

[waterdrop]

I know. I tend to to exaggerate the details and make things sound complicated with my writing when its on a subject I want to keep learning more about and refining. It can do a disservice to others.

On the contrary. You will be a mod in no time.


I read about plants outcompeting algae for nutrients so many times on this forum, and I wish this notion would just go away. I can grow algae in very pure demineralised water. Alga occupy a different part of the aquatic environment to plants. Alga are opportunists that move in where plants fail. They are not nutrient limited.

While we are at it, I would love to see "heavy root feeders" disappear off the face of the earth too. And, I wish people wouldn`t recommend plants to "mop up" nitrates too.

I am relying on you to carry the torch WD.

Bye, Dave.

OK, so let me get this clear, lol. I'm hearing you say that even the idea that a large mass of growing plants (70/75% substrate) taking up all the nutrients and leaving none for the algae is just not a good concept because... and this makes sense.... we are dosing EI anyway and ensuring that we -won't- run out of any nutrient ideally, before the week is out and the water change comes. Therefore there will -always- be extra plant nutrients available to the algae, so this (the large growing plant mass) is not a way of preventing algae.

And so you are saying we should just forget that as an axiom of preventing algae and instead pin our hopes on good water movement such that micro-ammonia-pockets will be eliminated, right? Are you saying we're really down to just that as the prime algae preventer or is it still a combination of sorts in your mind?

Now I admit to putting little "root tablets" (previously API, currently seachem ones) under my sword plant, but I only did this because I don't really think my Flourite substrate was ever very good in the grand scheme of things. I never think of this little addition of the tabs as an excuse to -not- do EI in the water column.

And I'm definately not one to promote plants as mopping up nitrates. In a well-maintained tank I don't tend to think of nitrates much one way or the other, other than to confirm that yes the weekly water changes are keeping things in good shape. Would you agree with that? Actually that leads to a real question... Aren't the "forms" (don't quite know what I mean by that) of nitrate different between what's left over from nitrification versus what's dosed to provide the fertilizer known as "the macronutrient Nitrogen?"

Oh, and just to provide you with a little side entertainment I'll give you an update on the latest experiment in my "brown algae growing tank"... I chopped out ONE hour (morning 4 down to 3 or something like that) a little while back and I think I'm now seeing a little brown algae reduction. ..course I still haven't ever ordered a koralia.. but all I ever do is -write-, I never actually -do- anything, lol.

WD