Help - Fish In Broken Cycle

[dilbert]

Sorry to jump in here but having had a similar problem, too, I thought I add something here.

Wasn't my fault (to defend myself ) but I ended once up with daily waterchanges - mostly 25% in the morning and 50% to 75% in the evening - over weeks.

AmmoLock and others can be very helpful but there are two things to consider.
1.)
The ammonia tests will still show something and more than expected as they measure always ammonia and ammonium together and only ammonia is the dangerous thing. Those liquids turn ammonia into ammonium but you cannot tell how much.
2.)
Those additives to remove ammonia contain an acid that lowers the ph. You have to watch your ph, too. Overall as nitrifying bacteria will stop working when the ph goes below ph 6.5 and at ph 6.0 they will all die entirely.

When you see that your ph is dangerously low, there is also PH Plus - another liquid that many LFS do stock - with that you bring the ph back in the normal range.

Only caveat with that is that you bring the system into a very fragile balance and you have to monitor your parameters daily or better twice a day.

Hope you'll get it sorted by the time as those daily waterchanges and constant water testing can become a time consuming job.

 

[littlest]

I've always heard that it is bad to use chemicals to adjust pH, such as pH Plus, as they cause pH swings which can be very bad for fish.

I am pretty sure that the bacteria doesn't die off completely when pH falls to 6. I know a low pH can slow and even stall a cycle, but there's quite a few people round here running tanks successfully with a pH of 6, so surely it can't be true that the bacteria completely dies at this level.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

what actually happens with a low pH is that it is a different species of bacteria which do the job at a low pH. they grow much mroe slowly.

if the pH drops too low (below 5.5) the existing bacteria will die off and a new speccies will grow in they're place, thus causing the tank to cycle again, then when the pH rises back up the bacteria die off and another cycle will start and the 'normal' bacteria grow.

that's a sort of simplified explanation anyway!

 

[dilbert]

I am pretty sure that the bacteria doesn't die off completely when pH falls to 6.

I don't know if they go dormant or die only at 95% but I have read that repeatedly and at the moment I got only that source at hand:

[URL="http/www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html"]http/www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html[/URL]

But all sources say: no nitrifying work done below ph 6.0.

Adding liquids to the tank is always bad but I got once fed up with those daily double waterchanges and made myself the discovery that ammonia got up for apparently no reason and found that the ph was exactly 6.0.

As I said already adding too much liquids to the tank is bad but the alternative is bringing the livestock back to the LFS if you don't have another established tank or know someone who has one.

 

[Fryfly]

Quick update - The nitrites are here to say the least! Changed the water at night and no nitrite woke up in the morning and tested ... Nitrite 0.3, Quick water change tested an hour later and 0.1. Did another large water change last night. One of my tetras is not happy at all, he's lost all his colour. Hope the water changes and my constant testing will save him but don't know.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

unfortunately tetra's are not hardy fish (anymore, historically they were but they've now been in bred and over bred and are consequently quite weak) so it wouldn't be a surprise if you lost him. fingers crossed you won't but you should be realistic.

it may feel like an age, but it's only 6 days since you first posted this, remember a full fishless cycle can take 6 weeks, so to be a week in and already seeing no ammonia is pretty good going and a sign that you didn't kill off all your bacteria.

it usually takes nitrite twice as long to go as it does ammonia, when did you first get a 0 reading for ammonia?

 

[Fryfly]

Ammonia is still there but only just - less than 0.25, But the nitrite has spiked for sure.
Think I'm getting close to needing to rinse my filter. Can I do this while I'm cycling. Obviously it's dealling with all my fish load and I'm too scared to touch it except turning it off when I do the water change.

Sad about the glowlight but to be honest 1 casualty in this whole thing and I guess I'm lucky.

On a plus - the riccia is having a growth spurt at the moment

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yes you can rinse your filter but just be careful with it. only rinse half the media (at most) and do the absolute minimum nescessary

just a v half hearted squeeze in tank water should do it.

if the flow has dropped then you should rinse it out, because for the bacteria to grow you need to get as much water through the filter as possible, if the flow has dropped then you're not getting maximum output from the filter and therefore bacteria not growing as quickly as they should.

we recently did an excessive prune which triggered a mini cycle, the filter was due a clean and when I cleaned it the mini cycle was done the next day.

yup the riccia will be blooming, most aquarium plants prefer to take in ammonia than nitrate, so they'll be soaking it up and growing like crazy. if you have a lot of plants they may actually be slowing the cycle by using up loads of ammonia so the bacteria aren't getting enough to grow. however if they are using up the ammonia it does mean it's not harming your fish so much.... swings and roundabouts!

 

[Fryfly]

yes you can rinse your filter but just be careful with it. only rinse half the media (at most) and do the absolute minimum nescessary

just a v half hearted squeeze in tank water should do it.

if the flow has dropped then you should rinse it out, because for the bacteria to grow you need to get as much water through the filter as possible, if the flow has dropped then you're not getting maximum output from the filter and therefore bacteria not growing as quickly as they should.

we recently did an excessive prune which triggered a mini cycle, the filter was due a clean and when I cleaned it the mini cycle was done the next day.

yup the riccia will be blooming, most aquarium plants prefer to take in ammonia than nitrate, so they'll be soaking it up and growing like crazy. if you have a lot of plants they may actually be slowing the cycle by using up loads of ammonia so the bacteria aren't getting enough to grow. however if they are using up the ammonia it does mean it's not harming your fish so much.... swings and roundabouts!

LOL - that's probably it as I have a lot of plants and they are growing like buckshot. I have lots as my tap water has very high levels of nitrate, and they add a dimension to the hobbie for me.
Juyst popped home for lunch and my tetra is looking better. His colour has a marked improvement but it's not there yet.
I'll just dip the filter media in and out a few times - I never really squeeze it. It's a fluval 3 so it's seriously got the big guns in that tank

 

[Fryfly]

My tetra is better He has all his colour back and he's eating nicely and the school is swimming well together. I don't understand what was wrong with him or why he went dull but i'm really happy he made it.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

excellent, whats you ammonia and nitrite looking like now?

 

[Fryfly]

excellent, whats you ammonia and nitrite looking like now?

not there yet but I do hope close. Both are staying really low but neither are dissapearing. the levels were rising a lot quicker than they are now. So i think I'm getting there now.
Test this morning

A 0.25 or lower
N 0.1

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yeah it happens like that sometimes, last little bits just linger. the levels (while obviously not good) are safer now so hopefully you're through the worst of it. just stick with it and i'm sure it'll be done soon.

what size water changes are you doing? Sometimes if cycling slows down or stalls doing a humungous water change (80/90%) will kick start things so it might be worth a shot. If nothing else it'll dilute whats there to next to nothing for a day or so anyway.

 

[Fryfly]

yeah it happens like that sometimes, last little bits just linger. the levels (while obviously not good) are safer now so hopefully you're through the worst of it. just stick with it and i'm sure it'll be done soon.

what size water changes are you doing? Sometimes if cycling slows down or stalls doing a humungous water change (80/90%) will kick start things so it might be worth a shot. If nothing else it'll dilute whats there to next to nothing for a day or so anyway.

Really just changing 30% everyday. I'll give it a shot tonight!

 

[Fryfly]

Last night got home did a change woke up:

A 0.6 !
N 0.3 !

Did a big change this morning 50%
No wonder fish suffer with the water stats being so unstable.
I've got shed loads of snails now too - lol - they must be thriving in my Riccia forrest