Has Anyone Used Wormer Plus?

[KimA]

p.s. that quote is meaningless unless you cite where you got it from.

Perhaps we could get back on track with this post and where it came from - I was originally giving advice to the post's originator, not wanting to get into a debate on worming Discus and hi-jacking someone else's thread. If you'd like advice on worming Discus, check out the New World Cichlid section and post your queries there - am sure someone else would love to discuss this with you further - just not me.

Night night

 

[KimA]

Now, back to the original topic of Guppies and Wormer Plus - how're your fish doing Egmel?

Not great it has to be said, most of them don't seem to worry that much about the worms but one of them has developed a hole just blow her anus and isn't eating properly There doesn't seem to be any improvement since I dosed on Saturday.

So sorry

Just checked the Wormer Plus packet and it says that you can redose after 4 days, but only for flukes.

On the Flubenol site it states "Flubenol 15 works within hours of it being administered to your tank, but egg laying parasites will require further treatment as the eggs hatch into parasites. Items like camallanus worms and egg laying flukes may take up to 4 treatments at weekly intervals to ensure all the new parasites are attacked, by the time you see camallanus worms, the body cavity is already full of worms and eggs. Tapeworms and non egg laying flukes are killed first hit."

Perhaps post in the Emergency section if you've not already done so.

 

[Bignose]

I think that discussing the dangers of casual use of medication has a place in any thread where medication is brought up. I also added my advice to the OP about praziquantel. I did not know that it is hard to get in the UK, but that doesn't change the fact that it is very effective.

Our discussion was on using worming medication, I think that it is very on topic for this thread. It is not like we started a discussion on the latest movies or debating politics or something.

KimA, I don't need any advice on worming discus, I am trying to have a discussion on why adding medicine uneccessarily can potentially lead to some really dire results. I have stated my opinions and the reasons behind my opinions, and have asked you some simple questions (like where the worms could come from), but you so far have ducked them. Really, your whole case is 'I do it because Chris Ingham said to do it.' I notice that he doesn't explain where the worms come from each month.

Can someone please just tell me where the worms would come from each month?

I think that that is a pretty simple question.

 

[Egmel]

Right I've gone away and done a bit of homework so hopefully I can clear up a couple of things.

I think that discussing the dangers of casual use of medication has a place in any thread where medication is brought up. I also added my advice to the OP about praziquantel. I did not know that it is hard to get in the UK, but that doesn't change the fact that it is very effective.

You are right to advise against casual use, but this is not what we're talking about. The levels in both wormer plus and flubenol 15 have been set above the minimum level for super-strains to occur, this is why they are the only products allowed to be sold in the UK. They both carry strict warnings against under dosing, in fact advising that overdosing up to 10 times is still perfectly safe. As such there should be no survivors to create the super-strain you are rightly worried about. It's not like only taking half a course of antibiotics or only dosing enough to kill off the weakest it is complete annihilation on a monthly basis (or in my case over the next couple of weeks)

Can someone please just tell me where the worms would come from each month?

I think that that is a pretty simple question.

The worms can come from anywhere, feeding live or frozen foods, from your hands when you do anything in or near your tank (Don't get me started on the problems with anti-bacterial hand washes). It is impossible to keep fish in a sterile environment and worms which lay eggs are even more difficult to control. As such, anyone offering their fish a varied diet and a well cared for tank is likely to have a population of worms at some point. Unfortunately by the time you see them it's too late to do much about them (as I'm finding to my detriment) so I fully understand people who medicate as a precautionary measure.

I think the problem you are alluding to, the one of causing super-strains is unlikely to be caused by monthly worming. I am as concerned as you about the need for education about the damages done by not finishing a course of antibiotics but I don't think that monthly worming of a fish tank can be described as 'casual use'.

On the other hand, when you remove one subset of lifeforms from a tank you allow 'room' for others to thrive, in this sense you upset the ecological balance, while I don't see this as a huge problem in a home tank I would never condone such mass tampering in a setting closer to nature.

 

[Bignose]

The worms can come from anywhere, feeding live or frozen foods, from your hands when you do anything in or near your tank (Don't get me started on the problems with anti-bacterial hand washes). It is impossible to keep fish in a sterile environment and worms which lay eggs are even more difficult to control. As such, anyone offering their fish a varied diet and a well cared for tank is likely to have a population of worms at some point. Unfortunately by the time you see them it's too late to do much about them (as I'm finding to my detriment) so I fully understand people who medicate as a precautionary measure.

I think the problem you are alluding to, the one of causing super-strains is unlikely to be caused by monthly worming. I am as concerned as you about the need for education about the damages done by not finishing a course of antibiotics but I don't think that monthly worming of a fish tank can be described as 'casual use'.

On the other hand, when you remove one subset of lifeforms from a tank you allow 'room' for others to thrive, in this sense you upset the ecological balance, while I don't see this as a huge problem in a home tank I would never condone such mass tampering in a setting closer to nature.

I can believe the live foods, but freezing foods kills pretty much any nasties that come along with it. And, not to be too incredulous, but what the heck are you doing that you have worms on your hands?!? Don't you wash up?

Basically, so far you are saying, and I agree, you need to be very careful about the source of your live food. But again, this is what I said earlier, that you have to introduce the worms from somewhere, they can't just spontaneously appear.

So, again, why don't you do a full treatment one time, killing 100% of the infection, and then make sure you don't introduce any new worms? Then this monthly ritual would not be needed.

 

[tmack]

I think this thread is pointless to continue.

 

[Egmel]

I can believe the live foods, but freezing foods kills pretty much any nasties that come along with it.

I agree that freezing is likely to kill almost all parasites, but I have no idea what effect it has on eggs. Some of the more primitive organisms are actually very resilient to temperature extremes, as such I don't trust freezing as a true method of removing all 'nasties'.

And, not to be too incredulous, but what the heck are you doing that you have worms on your hands?!? Don't you wash up?

Wash up? I'm assuming you don't mean 'do the dishes' funnily enough I do wash my hands before and after doing anything in the tank. I have to admit though that I don't always wash them before I open the fish food on a twice daily basis, nor before I move the chair from in front of the fish tank back towards the table or vice versa. What I want to get across is that however careful you are about cleaning up there will always be cross contamination in the home. We do everything we can to minimise it but for most of us the tank is a part of our homes and as such cannot be kept completely separate without having (frankly absurd) levels of anti-contamination procedures.

So, again, why don't you do a full treatment one time, killing 100% of the infection, and then make sure you don't introduce any new worms? Then this monthly ritual would not be needed.

Because without wrapping your fish in an airtight bubble I don't seriously believe that it is possible to keep them free of all disease and parasites. If you are keeping expensive or delicate fish, you want to feed them live foods as a treat occasionally and yet you still want them to be disease free. So in the same way that I wouldn't stop a child playing in the garden for fear it might scratch itself if it did scratch itself I would have the (non-sting) antiseptic spray ready!

Bignose you and I have gone round and round in circles like this before, we obviously have different attitudes to where the theoretical and practical fishkeeping boundaries lie and as such I suggest that we agree to disagree. You can have your nice safe disease/medication free tank and I'll continue to take the risk with live food and spoil my guppies occasionally

On a happier note my guppies appear to be feeling much better the worms are on their way out and the one that had a nasty hole/sore is healing nicely and going after food again.

Oh and there are yet more little ones!

 

[Bignose]

I am very happy to hear that your fish are responding to the treatment, hopefully it will be the last time.

I just think that if you are constantly fighting infections -- of any kind, bacterial, viral, protozoan like ich, or worms -- that there is room for improvement in the fishkeeping method. I say this because my own experience has been largely disease free. When I first brought the fish home from my LFS, my fish had worm. Two full anti-worm treatments latter, and the problem was gone, forever, as in never came back. Some time back I bought a few baby tiger barbs from a different LFS. While in quarantine, they developed ich, but that is why I have a quarantine tank.

Other than that, I am talking many years without a single disease in the main tanks. I don't buy live food, since I cannot get it near where I live, so that is one possible vector that you are using that I don't. Otherwise, it sounds like I do all the other same things. I feed them frozen food, many, many different kinds as a matter of fact. Freezing does indeed kill most (if not all) worm eggs. You are thinking of the protective covers that some worm eggs have, so the egg survives the digestive acids in the body. But temperature change is the easist method to ensure that food is safe -- either freezing the food for several days, or ensuring it is cooked completely through.

My hands are defintely in the tank for maintenence. I just use my local tap water. I don't know what other differences there are.

The point is, and has been, the disease has to come from somewhere. If live food were the source, I'd either stop feeding the live food or work on culturing my own live food. If you are bringing in fish without quarantining them, then you are just opening your door to these problems. But, if you take some simple precautions, diseases should not be running rampant in your tank. They have to come from somewhere, and if they are recurring you should take it upon yourself to learn where they are coming from and stop them. Again, this isn't just theoretical, but from my own experiences. Not even just my own experiences, but from the experiences of several other members on this board that also have long-term disease-free tanks. It is not just theoretical, it can be done, you just need to eliminate ways the bugs are getting in your tank.

 

[KimA]

On a happier note my guppies appear to be feeling much better the worms are on their way out and the one that had a nasty hole/sore is healing nicely and going after food again.

Oh and there are yet more little ones!

Fantastic news - nice one on the new arrivals

 

[mikev]

Really excellent answers by Bignose, pleasant to read, but one correction if I may

I think that discussing the dangers of casual use of medication has a place in any thread where medication is brought up. I also added my advice to the OP about praziquantel. I did not know that it is hard to get in the UK, but that doesn't change the fact that it is very effective.

Praziquantel is NOT effective against nematodes. It is very effective against tapeworms, but nematodes are the far more serious danger.

 

[Egmel]

I am very happy to hear that your fish are responding to the treatment, hopefully it will be the last time.

Although I'm fairly new to fishkeeping this is the first outbreak of worms so fingers crossed for it being the first and last.

I just think that if you are constantly fighting infections -- of any kind, bacterial, viral, protozoan like ich, or worms -- that there is room for improvement in the fishkeeping method. I say this because my own experience has been largely disease free. When I first brought the fish home from my LFS, my fish had worm. Two full anti-worm treatments latter, and the problem was gone, forever, as in never came back. Some time back I bought a few baby tiger barbs from a different LFS. While in quarantine, they developed ich, but that is why I have a quarantine tank.

Other than that, I am talking many years without a single disease in the main tanks.

I agree that a quarantine tank is a brilliant idea, and as and when I decide to get any new fish (no room at the moment) I'll be sure to use one. I didn't when I first started fishkeeping as I didn't have all the necessary kit, since then I've acquired the various bits and pieces I need.

I don't buy live food, since I cannot get it near where I live, so that is one possible vector that you are using that I don't. Otherwise, it sounds like I do all the other same things. I feed them frozen food, many, many different kinds as a matter of fact. Freezing does indeed kill most (if not all) worm eggs. You are thinking of the protective covers that some worm eggs have, so the egg survives the digestive acids in the body. But temperature change is the easiest method to ensure that food is safe -- either freezing the food for several days, or ensuring it is cooked completely through.

I think this batch of worms came in on some live food I bought a while ago, I too am a fair distance from my LFS so have stocked up on a variety of frozen foods and intend to steer clear of live foods from now on, it's a shame as they enjoy the chase, they'll just have to go after the baby guppies instead . While I am sure that microwaving would kill all the nasties I'm not convinced freezing would, it's probably just me being silly but when I searched for information about it all I could find was that people were 'fairly sure' freezing killed off all the nasties but I've yet to see any actual research to back this up.

Either way I'm not medicating on a regular basis, I was just saying that I understood why people would if they kept expensive fish which were prone to a disease and which could be safely prevented using regular medication. Especially in the case of these worms which do not give outward signs until it is often too late. I fully agree that it's better never to get the disease in the first place.

I think basically that we agree 'prevention is better than cure' just that I include worming as a prevention because it can be done safely without a large risk of super strains and can be a silent killer otherwise.

Fantastic news - nice one on the new arrivals

Thank you, I'm kinda hoping they all get gobbled up though as we're nearing our stocking limit as it is!

 

[tmack]

I too am doubtful that freezing destroys all the nastys. Organisms have evolved to exist in extremes of heat (such as hot springs) as well as in freezing conditions, and it's quite often the microorganisms that do the best job at surving under adverse conditions. I would think that freeze dried might be safer, as I would think that most living cells are destroyed in that process, but I'm not totally convinced on that either.