Hello, I started a brackish 10 Gallon tank 2 weeks ago, its been cycled and salted to a good level. (Thanks to this forum and its users for all the past post info - too good!). Well I bought 1 green spotted puffer yesterday, his color is still good but he ate one little raspbora yesterday, which I euthanized because it seemed as though it was to fast for him to catch. But today before leaving for work this morning I placed some very young guppies and tetras in there and they were all still there when I came back. He doesn't seem interested at trying to eat them or even nipping them. The dude I bought him from said they fed their puffers live feeders and snails once a week. I am wondering are these fish too fast for him or do I have to kill his food for him everytime? Also, do they usually spend there time lying at the bottom ofthe tank? I here so much about not keeping Puffers in a community tank but this guy I got seems harmless and even lazy, am I wrong? He swims around for a bit buzzing around very near the fish some easily within nipping/biting distance and then for hours he'll stay on the bottom. Also, I didn't find a real clear answer as to how many times a day to feed them and how much? (He's about 2&1/2 inches) One last question, I just called my buddy who got his puffer last month (not an expert at all - but still can speak from his little experience) and he told me that his won't eat dead food even if it was just killed (I guess mine wasn't fed well at the store so thast why he ate yesterday). I am raising this question because I just killed a guppy to feed it something and he doesn't seem interested at all this time. My friend said that his has to either kill it or if it is too fast, it has to be almost dead so that it twitches in the water to attract it, is this true?
Green Spotted Puffer?
- Thread starter kevin_kay
- Start date
nmonks
A stroke of the brush does not guarantee art from
Why do you want to feed the puffer live fish?
There are some puffers that eat fish, but this species is not one of them. It needs a diet of molluscs (e.g., snails, clams) and crustaceans (e.g., shrimps, krill). Not only are these the natural and nutritionally correct foods, but they also help to wear down the puffer's beak. Without these foods, the beak will grwo too long and the puffer will have trouble feedings.
Another reason to avoid feeder fish is that it is unhealthy. Feeder fish -- particularly cheap feeders like guppies -- come from overcrowded aquaria where the incidence of parasitic and bacterial infections is very high. If you are feeding one of these fish to your puffer every couple of days, then sooner or later the puffer will get sick.
If you read books, magazines, or entries on these forums by experienced aquarists, you will rarely, if ever, see feeding live fish to other fish recommended. There are some people who enjoy seeing one fish eat another, but this is cruel and hardly in the spirit of responsible fishkeeping. Very, VERY few species of fish will eat nothing but live fish, and the sooner you adapt a fish to clean dead foods, the healthier that fish will be.
Sincerely,
Neale
There are some puffers that eat fish, but this species is not one of them. It needs a diet of molluscs (e.g., snails, clams) and crustaceans (e.g., shrimps, krill). Not only are these the natural and nutritionally correct foods, but they also help to wear down the puffer's beak. Without these foods, the beak will grwo too long and the puffer will have trouble feedings.
Another reason to avoid feeder fish is that it is unhealthy. Feeder fish -- particularly cheap feeders like guppies -- come from overcrowded aquaria where the incidence of parasitic and bacterial infections is very high. If you are feeding one of these fish to your puffer every couple of days, then sooner or later the puffer will get sick.
If you read books, magazines, or entries on these forums by experienced aquarists, you will rarely, if ever, see feeding live fish to other fish recommended. There are some people who enjoy seeing one fish eat another, but this is cruel and hardly in the spirit of responsible fishkeeping. Very, VERY few species of fish will eat nothing but live fish, and the sooner you adapt a fish to clean dead foods, the healthier that fish will be.
Sincerely,
Neale
Oki Doki, I just woke up this morning its saturday in Canada. Thanks for the reply dude. Well, it didn't touch the guppy over night. I guess they aren't the type that eat other fish, well at least mine isn't. The thing is my buddy bought his fish from the same store and his devours his home grown mollies. I wanted mine to do the same with my guppies (bad strains of color which I cannot seel). I understand most people don't like watching one fish eat another, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I love peacefull fish too, especially tetras. But I also love my Bettas, Dwarf Pyranas and now my Dumpy (name for my new Puffer). My Betta and Pyrannas love their meals with a side of frye's of course! Yeah I did what yoy suggested and went through more of the past post and most of you seem to feed your fish either snails or shrimp. Well, if thats what my Dumpy wants then thats what he'll get! He's too cute!
Thanks for the advice dude, I appreciate anyone who goes out of their way to take the time to write a response.
Isn't feeding live fish just as cruel as feeding live snails? Well my entitled opinion is that I'm cool with it!
Have a great weekend
Thanks for the advice dude, I appreciate anyone who goes out of their way to take the time to write a response.
Isn't feeding live fish just as cruel as feeding live snails? Well my entitled opinion is that I'm cool with it!
Have a great weekend
nmonks
A stroke of the brush does not guarantee art from
Hello --
This is an interesting discussion point. At the simplest, biological level you can ask these questions:
Do snails/fish feel pain?
Do snails/fish show evidence of stress?
Certainly fish feel pain and fish show signs of being stressed when they are hunted or molested. As for snails, there's no evidence they feel pain though they certainly react to being touched or nipped, but as for stress, they have such small brains it is hard to imagine that they can get stressed in any meaningful way.
Morally, you can argue that feeding a live fish to a puffer is no more wrong than feeding any other live animal, say a snail or a shrimp. Each time, it's a life being lost to sustain another.
Besides, with the fish you're keeping, live fish aren't what it wants and over the long term will do more harm than good. Fish fed on high-protein diets (like live fish) when they really need low-protein ones (like shrimps) invariably live shorter lives. This holds for humans, it holds for cats (why do you think so many old cats get renal failure?), and it holds for fish.
Cheers,
Neale
This is an interesting discussion point. At the simplest, biological level you can ask these questions:
Do snails/fish feel pain?
Do snails/fish show evidence of stress?
Certainly fish feel pain and fish show signs of being stressed when they are hunted or molested. As for snails, there's no evidence they feel pain though they certainly react to being touched or nipped, but as for stress, they have such small brains it is hard to imagine that they can get stressed in any meaningful way.
Morally, you can argue that feeding a live fish to a puffer is no more wrong than feeding any other live animal, say a snail or a shrimp. Each time, it's a life being lost to sustain another.
Besides, with the fish you're keeping, live fish aren't what it wants and over the long term will do more harm than good. Fish fed on high-protein diets (like live fish) when they really need low-protein ones (like shrimps) invariably live shorter lives. This holds for humans, it holds for cats (why do you think so many old cats get renal failure?), and it holds for fish.
Cheers,
Neale
love cichlids
Fish Crazy
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the petstore where I bought my GSP from said they will devour live fish when in groups. I asked her if I should once in a while get a live fish for my one that I am buying and she said that the puffer would take a nip out of the fish and not eat it. So I thought, forget it, I don't want to be euthanizing an injured fish everytime the puffer took a little nibble. She gets bloodworms, unshelled raw shrimp and snails. I haven't tried anything else yet, but will soon. If you just bought your puffer it is still quite small and just give it snails, frozen bloodworms, daphnia. I just drop 1/2 a cube of frozen bloodworms in the tank and she pecks at it to loosen up some bloodworms for her to eat. Doesn't take long for her to eat it all. Remember, one day a week do not feed your puffer, this is good for all fish you keep. I do it with mine once a week. I used to be gone all weekend, I would feed them twice on friday and then later sunday when I got home and they did fine.
Oki Doki everyone, thanks for all your replies, I just got back home. I had the chance to pass by the fsih store and bought some snails and freeze dried bloodworms for Dumpy. I just put them and am looking at them as I'm writing right now. So far he's show no interest in eating them. He has taken a good long look at the biggest one though but didn't bite. I'm going to try the blood worms now..... nope, no luck. Well, I am going to leave the snails and some bloddworms in over night and see if they are gone by tomorrow morning. If he still hasn't eaten is there anything else I can try? His belly and color look good so he doesn't look stressed, he does lounge a lot but moves about every 5 minutes or so. You think he's sick? Wierd little fishes aren't they, but I won't give up just yet! Have a great weekend.
Dave Legacy
Fish Crazy
My look at it is if you start feeding a predator live foods and then one day out of nowhere you start feeding dead/frozen foods/dried foods they probably wont accept them. I have to coax my GSP to eat by wiggling around a piece of krill that's being held by some long forceps. She then comes out of her cave and I let her chase the food all the way to the top of the tank before I let her get it. My GSP is extremely shy, so I'm trying to get her to be a bit more social. This might work for you.
BTW... 10 Gallon? Have you seen how big GSPs get full grown?
BTW... 10 Gallon? Have you seen how big GSPs get full grown?
Well, I'm sad to say that my puffer died. I bought him everything I could from Frozen bloodworms to snails to crayfish and even some smaller/slower frye (he did not or could not eat anything). I think he died because of an internal disease of some sort, he had some slime coming out from his gills when I came back today. I don't know if I'll try again soon but I plan to go the the lps and talk to them nicely. The fact is, I'll probably get a new fish (cause I am sure they do not want to lose my business) but the question is do I want to. As I am writing I am leaning more towards no (1) because the other fsh probably have the same disease and (2) I want them[lps people] to realize selling anyone a badly conditioned fish is a no no and I for one will not take it. Whether I'll go back there aterwards, maybe, but most likely not! Well, maybe I'll try some dwarf puffers in a month or so after I get over this loss. Even though I feed some of my fish live foods, it doesn't mean I don't have a heart and that I am cruel, I just like watching the closing thing to nature as I can in a tank of course. Thanks for all your help though, really did appreciate, I just hoped it could have turned out better. Well, have a good week.
nmonks
A stroke of the brush does not guarantee art from
Hello Kevin --
When fish die from something like a disease or parasites, it is important to understand that the disease was a symptom of a larger problem, inappropriate care. If you think about humans for example, the places where human mortality is highest is where humans don't have access to good food, clean water, etc. Disease usually sets in after the animal is stressed, and only rarely is disease the reason why the fish became stressed.
Pufferfish are not easy to keep. But neither are they impossible to keep. The most important factor is water quality. Like all fish they are sensitive to nitrites and ammonium, but they are also very sensitive to nitrates and oxygen levels. Broadly speaking, puffers need the largest tank you can use, with plenty of filtration, and frequent, regular water changes. The brackish water puffers appear to be especially sensitive, though this may be because salty water contains less oxygen than fresh water. Some people recommend 50% water changes, on a weekly basis.
If the only tank you have is a 10-gallon one, then a green spotted puffer is a bad choice, but there are dwarf puffers that might work out. To be honest, I don't really rate 10 gallon tanks as useful for anything except raising fry and keeping gobies.
It is extremely unlikely all the pufferfish in the shop have some mysterious disease that caused the death of the fish. It is possible, but unlikely. What is much more probable is that the fish have not been looked after properly, and are just generally stressed. If you bought another puffer, put it in a brackish (SG 1.010) water aquarium containing at least 30 gallons of water, and looked after it perfecty, I'm sure it would be fine. Farmed fish (like neons, dwarf gouramis, and angelfish) do very often come 'ready infected' with bacteria but by and large wild-caught fish do not. Feeder fish are, of course, one of the very best ways to introduce parasites and bacteria into an otherwise healthy fish since feeder fish are raised in overcrowded, unhealthy conditions.
The question you need to ask yourself is did you do anything wrong? Are there things you could do better? Have you access to information about these fish that you can rely on?
There is nothing wrong with admitting mistakes, and everyone loses fish from time to time. I did this weekend, having cut corners when trying to acclimate some new and rather delicate fish to a small aquarium, only to find them dead the next morning. So even after keeping fish for 20+ years, I still do silly things, and pay the price afterwards. Or rather, and more sadly, the fish pays the price with its life.
In your case, my guess would be that the tank wasn't mature, and that there was at least a low level of nitrites and ammonium, and these stressed the fish. The mucous from the gills can be a symptom of an irritation to the gills caused by the nitrite and ammonium. This is a short-term response fish have to protect the delicate gill tissues, but over the long term the mucous slows down oxygen getting into the fish and carbon dioxide getting out. The gills are also important as excretery organs, a bit like kidneys, and if they are irritated fish cannot "urinate" properly, which is obviously bad.
Two weeks isn't nearly long enough to mature an aquarium; six weeks is nearer the mark, and even then the bacteria population tends to be unstable. It is usually 2-3 months before an aquarium can be really considered stable and mature. One thing I hope you are aware of is that you cannot use zeolite (ammonia remover) in brackish water.
So should you keep fish again? Sure! It's a fun hobby. Should you keep a puffer again? Quite probably, but try and understand what mistakes you might have made and avoid them next time. As I say, these puffers are not impossible to keep alive (far from it in fact) and a mysterious, incurable disease is hardly likely. I would suggest using a larger tank, or choosing a dwarf species if you are stuck with the 10-gallon aquarium.
Sincerely,
Neale
When fish die from something like a disease or parasites, it is important to understand that the disease was a symptom of a larger problem, inappropriate care. If you think about humans for example, the places where human mortality is highest is where humans don't have access to good food, clean water, etc. Disease usually sets in after the animal is stressed, and only rarely is disease the reason why the fish became stressed.
Pufferfish are not easy to keep. But neither are they impossible to keep. The most important factor is water quality. Like all fish they are sensitive to nitrites and ammonium, but they are also very sensitive to nitrates and oxygen levels. Broadly speaking, puffers need the largest tank you can use, with plenty of filtration, and frequent, regular water changes. The brackish water puffers appear to be especially sensitive, though this may be because salty water contains less oxygen than fresh water. Some people recommend 50% water changes, on a weekly basis.
If the only tank you have is a 10-gallon one, then a green spotted puffer is a bad choice, but there are dwarf puffers that might work out. To be honest, I don't really rate 10 gallon tanks as useful for anything except raising fry and keeping gobies.
It is extremely unlikely all the pufferfish in the shop have some mysterious disease that caused the death of the fish. It is possible, but unlikely. What is much more probable is that the fish have not been looked after properly, and are just generally stressed. If you bought another puffer, put it in a brackish (SG 1.010) water aquarium containing at least 30 gallons of water, and looked after it perfecty, I'm sure it would be fine. Farmed fish (like neons, dwarf gouramis, and angelfish) do very often come 'ready infected' with bacteria but by and large wild-caught fish do not. Feeder fish are, of course, one of the very best ways to introduce parasites and bacteria into an otherwise healthy fish since feeder fish are raised in overcrowded, unhealthy conditions.
The question you need to ask yourself is did you do anything wrong? Are there things you could do better? Have you access to information about these fish that you can rely on?
There is nothing wrong with admitting mistakes, and everyone loses fish from time to time. I did this weekend, having cut corners when trying to acclimate some new and rather delicate fish to a small aquarium, only to find them dead the next morning. So even after keeping fish for 20+ years, I still do silly things, and pay the price afterwards. Or rather, and more sadly, the fish pays the price with its life.
In your case, my guess would be that the tank wasn't mature, and that there was at least a low level of nitrites and ammonium, and these stressed the fish. The mucous from the gills can be a symptom of an irritation to the gills caused by the nitrite and ammonium. This is a short-term response fish have to protect the delicate gill tissues, but over the long term the mucous slows down oxygen getting into the fish and carbon dioxide getting out. The gills are also important as excretery organs, a bit like kidneys, and if they are irritated fish cannot "urinate" properly, which is obviously bad.
Two weeks isn't nearly long enough to mature an aquarium; six weeks is nearer the mark, and even then the bacteria population tends to be unstable. It is usually 2-3 months before an aquarium can be really considered stable and mature. One thing I hope you are aware of is that you cannot use zeolite (ammonia remover) in brackish water.
So should you keep fish again? Sure! It's a fun hobby. Should you keep a puffer again? Quite probably, but try and understand what mistakes you might have made and avoid them next time. As I say, these puffers are not impossible to keep alive (far from it in fact) and a mysterious, incurable disease is hardly likely. I would suggest using a larger tank, or choosing a dwarf species if you are stuck with the 10-gallon aquarium.
Sincerely,
Neale
Well, I went back to the fish store, they were very polite and when I told them what happened and they wanted to re-emburse and give me a free puffer, I reluctantly declined because I just don't want to go through all that again. I let him know my friend went through the same process as I did for pre-setup and his fish is fine right now. He said sometimes it is the luck of the draw, some fish are more accepting and tolerant than others. He was very cool about it, but I am not sure I want to go brackish again. I got so paranoid about the fish starving, I nearly bought every kind of puffer fish food in ther store lol.
Did I make a mistake of not cycling the tank long enough?---> I don't think so. I am a 28 year old man who's part time hobby is keeping and breeding fish, and I am only human and will make mistakes and I know many of you on this forum are pretty young but have accumilated more experience than I, so, I'll take any critism as constructive and with a smile and thank you for your help and interest.
Will I get a puffer in the future?----> Yeah, probably in a few weeks when a new shipments of freshwater dwarf puffers come in. (I'll probably be back here in 3 weeks to ask some dwarf puffer people some questions again) lol
While I wait I think I am going to soend part of the weekend breeding my Bettas to get a pure yellow gene and to perfect the black gene. I have been playing around with pure reds and partial yellows to get a nice orange gene (almost there). I sort of have these ones but am still looking for a pure black breeding female to go with the black male I purchased. Maybe a breader in Toronto might have one. As for Montreal, there aren't many breaders here.
Have a great week. Remember, the days in the week you work allow you to enjoy your weekend that much more!
Did I make a mistake of not cycling the tank long enough?---> I don't think so. I am a 28 year old man who's part time hobby is keeping and breeding fish, and I am only human and will make mistakes and I know many of you on this forum are pretty young but have accumilated more experience than I, so, I'll take any critism as constructive and with a smile and thank you for your help and interest.
Will I get a puffer in the future?----> Yeah, probably in a few weeks when a new shipments of freshwater dwarf puffers come in. (I'll probably be back here in 3 weeks to ask some dwarf puffer people some questions again) lol
While I wait I think I am going to soend part of the weekend breeding my Bettas to get a pure yellow gene and to perfect the black gene. I have been playing around with pure reds and partial yellows to get a nice orange gene (almost there). I sort of have these ones but am still looking for a pure black breeding female to go with the black male I purchased. Maybe a breader in Toronto might have one. As for Montreal, there aren't many breaders here.
Have a great week. Remember, the days in the week you work allow you to enjoy your weekend that much more!
nmonks
A stroke of the brush does not guarantee art from
Hi Kevin --
I didn't mean to say that you're a bad fishkeeper, just a two-week old tank and a pufferfish was perhaps a bad combination. We all make mistakes, some of the stupid. As I said in my message before, I still make mistakes and many of them are monumentally dumb. Anyone who breeds fish obviously does know what they're doing, in which case some of what I mentioned may have been redundant information. But I would say that compared with bettas and most other labyrinth fish, puffers are peculiarily sensitive to dissolved metabolites like nitrate.
Good luck with the dwarf puffers!
Cheers,
Neale
I didn't mean to say that you're a bad fishkeeper, just a two-week old tank and a pufferfish was perhaps a bad combination. We all make mistakes, some of the stupid. As I said in my message before, I still make mistakes and many of them are monumentally dumb. Anyone who breeds fish obviously does know what they're doing, in which case some of what I mentioned may have been redundant information. But I would say that compared with bettas and most other labyrinth fish, puffers are peculiarily sensitive to dissolved metabolites like nitrate.
Good luck with the dwarf puffers!
Cheers,
Neale
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