Green Eggs?

[jpedersen024]

Ok, so they've hatched!!!

Didn't hardly believe it. Checked the tank yesterday, to find that the walls were covered in this fine white 'fuzz'. Thought it was gunk accumulating, or some weird form of algae. Even upon very close inspection - didn't look like much, although the 'dash-like' appearance of it did make me wonder...

So I went out tonight and picked up some marine salts (thanks three-fingers!!) and added some (just a dabble??) to the tank tonight just in case. When I turned off the filter for a minute and waited for the water to settle - I could see the little (SOOOOO tiny!!!) 'dash-dots' zipping around on their own!! I am thrilled!! They look like teeny white bubbles (smaller than a pin head) with a translucent 'hair' attached. All moving/ floating head down of course. That was another tip off.

They are AMAZINGLY tiny, and very hard to see on their own. And that's in a tank where there is no substrate or decoration. Just a few large rocks in the middle! I couldn't imagine ever finding them in a community tank.

So now how much salt do I have to add to make the water 'brackish'? They're only in my 5 gallon hospital tank, and I know nothing about marine environments. The mom is still holding on to some eggs, although the pile does seem smaller. I can't imagine how many have hatched already - there seems to be thousands on all surfaces of the glass. I am trying to hold out until there are few to no eggs left before I remove her.

The second question is what in the world am I going to feed them?? I have put some algae covered leaves (pruned) in, but am researching to see what else (if anything) I can provide them at this stage.

Thanks to all for your help thus far! I hope to continue this thread to a great outcome!

 

[three-fingers]

Congratulations!

added some (just a dabble??) to the tank tonight just in case.

Just checking, your not adding it straight to the tank are you?

So now how much salt do I have to add to make the water 'brackish'?
The second question is what in the world am I going to feed them?? I have put some algae covered leaves (pruned) in, but am researching to see what else (if anything) I can provide them at this stage.

After reading Bloo's topic, and going by everything on the internet, by far the best thing to feed them is phytoplankton. There is other things they will eat, but these pollute the water.
Here's some things Bloo learnt that should guarantee you success:

Use a salinity of 35ppt - this obviously worked very well and they were clearly growing and thriving in this.
Have a fluorescent light above the tank 24 hours a day (or along the length if using a cylinder shaped container).
Lightly aerate the water but not too much or the zoes will get killed in the strong bubble current. I had to use an airline clamp to reduce this right down.
"Feed" the greenwater with a couple of drops of liquid fertiliser each day. This is where I need to do more research though and find out if there is any particular "best brand" or method.

With regards to making the water brackish, this is taken from the brackish forum:

A hydrometer: This is used to measure the salinity of the water to ensure that you are keeping the parameters correct for your chosen fish, brackish water is generally kept at a SG (specific gravity) of between 1.002 and 1.010 depending on the species kept.

Marine salt: The first thing that will suprise you is how much salt is required to create brackish water, a 60 litre (15 us gallon) aquarium will use the best part of a 1kg box of salt to bring the SG up to 1.010. Aquarium salt and tonic salt are not suitable for brackish aquariums as they lack the essential minerals found in seawater.

A large container: Salt should never be added directly to a tank containing fish as it can cause serious burns, always pre mix brackish water for water changes at least 1 hour before it is needed. To create 25 litres of brackish water with a SG of around 1.010 you will need to add approximately 375 grams of salt, add the salt to the water in the container and stir it vigourously with a stick or add a airstone and leave it till all the salt has disolved.

You should just keep mixing the marine salt in a bucket of the water until you reach 35ppt (SG 1.026), I'm not too sure how much salt that is though

You can buy greenwater here:eBay link
And fertiliser for it here: 2nd eBay link(specifically for marine phytoplankton, I don't know if you can use regular plant fertiliser on marine phytoplankton, but you can use it on freshwater phytoplankton)

I think you will find with the tube over it 24/7 and fertilising it, that you may get algae growth on the tank walls too, as I have found with culturing freshwater chlorella phytoplankton for fairy shrimp, it is important that if this happens not to scrub it off, as 1)it will just grow back 2)the scrubbed off algae decomposes and adds to the small bioload of the tank and 3)the algae will be helping cleaning the water from ammonia anyway so it's quite important.

One thing that I would personally do is buy the smallest sponge filter possible and connect it to the end of the airline from the pump. Even if its not strong enough to work, the sponge will still provide extra surface area for filter bacteria, and as the shrimp grow you can gradually increase the current. This way the shrimp are much less likely to die from a build up of ammonia/nitrite when they have grown and the algae alone can not deal with the bioload. The filter will slowly cycle it's self. Good luck .

 

[jpedersen024]

Ok, thank you for the tips! I stayed up waaaay later than I should have last night, and read through a ton of threads and links... (Bloo's included finally!)

I'm now thinking Whoa! What have I started??

It's all somewhat more involved and expensive than I had originally thought it would be. What with hydrometers, phytoplankton, ferts, etc.... Especially for stuff that I probably will have no use for in a month or two (or sooner if this all goes to pot!!!).

So.

I had jumped ahead (ignorant) about adding the salt. Thinking it would be an easy add. Silly me. I did not add it directly - thank goodness. But I didn't let it sit all that long either. Did give it a big stir until it was dissolved, and I don't think the concentration was all that strong either... in hindsight. What is the importance of aerating it? I did add dechlorinator as well...

Also had no idea about the sponge filter issues, although I had wondered how that would affect them. My sponge filter is a standard, commercial one, suctioned vertically to the back of the tank. I have a hood with an incandescent light bulb, which I COULD leave on, but imagine it would heat the water a fair bit more than it needs to be - especially since it has a heater in it already. Is the light to attract the shrimp? Or specifically to grow the phytoplankton? I feel like I could research all day on this computer and still have so many questions!!

The bonus of keeping my filter, is that I imagine it now has some bacteria established.... it's been cycling for weeks. That would be helpful... but not if it's sucking them all into oblivion I suppose. The plan right now is to keep it connected, but adjust the air flow through it. Should I add an airstone too? Or not necessary? I can easily divide off the air into a couple of tubes - dispersing it a lot more...

So phyto should be what I am looking for? I had read somewhere that yeast might be a decent option.... which of course I have on hand and it's super easy for me to obtain. There are no marine stores around here (anywhere!!!), and I had a hard time just finding the marine salts - believe it or not. I'm not sure where on earth (ok, just in this city..) I will find hydrometers, green water, and ferts..... or how much they will cost me. I appreciate the links, but living in Canada - it will a) take too long to get the stuff shipped over the ocean and B) customs will not look kindly on anything of the sort coming into the country. They don't realize the lives of a brand new stock of amano babies is at stake here!!

Sorry this was more thinking aloud than anything, but I certainly couldn't have gotten even this far without this board and forum! Thanks a big bunch!!

 

[jpedersen024]

Me again!

The learning curve continues. I bought a hydrometer today, and was able to find a store to purchase a live phytoplankton mixture in a small bottle. I'm assuming it is what is referred to as green water, since no one local seemed to know what that was. It looks green in the bottle anyways! The guy seemed unsure it would turn my water green, and said no ferts were necessary...?

Sometimes the 'translation' on this board proves difficult, as the hobby can be very different in terms/ availability/ and costs across the ocean it seems.

All totalled so far I've 'invested' about $50 just in phyto, hydrometer, and salt! Let's hope this pans out (eventually at least!) and I can recoup costs, or at least enjoy success, in the end. That would be nice!

Still not sure if a light is absolutely necessary - and have to find something suitable. Have removed the mom back to the home tank. Have to figure out a transfer system to get shrimp into 35 ppt salt water tonight. That's the next task at hand. Should be fun!

 

[three-fingers]

What is the importance of aerating it?

No importance really, just the uber-lazy-mans way of mixing it .

I have a hood with an incandescent light bulb, which I COULD leave on, but imagine it would heat the water a fair bit more than it needs to be - especially since it has a heater in it already. Is the light to attract the shrimp? Or specifically to grow the phytoplankton?

The incandescent light bulb may be no use at all unfortunately, some species of algae can photosynthesise at the spectrum providied by them but not all...I would seriously recommend a florescent. If it's just a standard incandescent fitting, try a florescent energy saving bulb available in most stores, and if you can get a 'daylight' one. These bulbs put out much less heat too so that shouldent be a problem And yes, the bulb is to grow the phytoplankton.

The bonus of keeping my filter, is that I imagine it now has some bacteria established.... it's been cycling for weeks. That would be helpful... but not if it's sucking them all into oblivion I suppose. The plan right now is to keep it connected, but adjust the air flow through it. Should I add an airstone too? Or not necessary? I can easily divide off the air into a couple of tubes - dispersing it a lot more...

As long as its an air powered sponge filter, just turn the air flow right down and it shouldent suck them in. I've used them with <1mm triops larvae no problem . If you already have an air powered sponge filter, there is no need for an airstone as it wont do much extra good at all since the bubbles from the filter will be providing enough surface agitation for oxygen diffusion. The thing about the sponge filter is that as the salinity goes up, the bacteria will die and be replaced with the saline equivalent, so it will be like a mini-cycle. Not anything to worry about though with such a low bioload and certainly better than nothing.

So phyto should be what I am looking for? I had read somewhere that yeast might be a decent option....

Yeast may work, but I don't know if anyone has tested it with these shrimp. The thing with fried yeast is that it will pollute the water of it goes uneaten, so its not the safest option.

I'm assuming it is what is referred to as green water, since no one local seemed to know what that was. It looks green in the bottle anyways! The guy seemed unsure it would turn my water green, and said no ferts were necessary...?

Are you sure you bought a live culture? I've seen some kind of algae mix for sale before for feeding things like marine clams and small brine shrimp cultures, the algae is dead though and is dosed daily and is dead (which would explain why he said you need to fertilise it). I really don't think you could get the right concentration for feeding the shrimp with it if that's what you've got. Does the bottle say anything on it? Was it kept refrigerated or just on a shelf somewhere?
Ferts are necessary for phytoplankton, if its growing it will use up all the nutrients from the shrimp waste and tap water pretty fast. If the worst happens and you cant find any specific phyto ferts, you may as well try your luck with something like tetra plantamin - I've used this with freshwater phyto and it worked, so i dont see why it shouldent work on the marine stuff.

Still not sure if a light is absolutely necessary

Fraid it is, sorry .

Good luck and keep us up to date with your progress .

 

[jpedersen024]

I'm assuming it is what is referred to as green water, since no one local seemed to know what that was. It looks green in the bottle anyways! The guy seemed unsure it would turn my water green, and said no ferts were necessary...?

Are you sure you bought a live culture? I've seen some kind of algae mix for sale before for feeding things like marine clams and small brine shrimp cultures, the algae is dead though and is dosed daily and is dead (which would explain why he said you need to fertilise it). I really don't think you could get the right concentration for feeding the shrimp with it if that's what you've got. Does the bottle say anything on it? Was it kept refrigerated or just on a shelf somewhere?

Thanks a bunch for the response. Just to clarify on the phyto... it was refridgerated, and you think it's a dead mix? It says on the bottle that it's a mix of nannochloropsis oculata, Phaeodactylum tricornutum, and chlorella. 2-20 microns. All greek to me - to be honest. It does have an expiry date on it though, and I have strict instructions to keep it cold, and dispose before the expiry - otherwise be overcome by an ungodly stench apparently. Does any of that sound right? I sure hope so after dishing out the cash for the stuff. It's useless to me otherwise! He said to only add a couple of drops of the stuff to my 5 gallon, but I could do it daily, or every other, if I wanted.

What do you think?

 

[jpedersen024]

They're now settled in 33ppt, with a 15W powerglo tube I had from one of my other tanks. Perfect! I think it's actually a coral bulb anyways, I just always liked the blue-ish tinge on my tetras. The sponge filter is still running, but turned way down to just allow a few bubbles to stir up the surface. Temp is about 74.

I added about 5 - 7 drops of the phyto mix. It actually says live culture on it (www.dtplankton.com), and to add 1 tsp per 15 gallons. I probably added that to my 5 gallon - no colour change. Now is there enough food in there? Or do I risk adding more and excessively polluting the whole system? I'm sure most people are NOT aiming for their tanks to turn swampy! I don't know what to do.

Can anyone advise? (Bloo are you still out there?) Now that I've got the whole set up established, hate to poison it all! Wouldn't that just be a bugger!

 

[three-fingers]

That's good news*phew*. If it wasn't refrigerated it would have probably been the dead algae food you can buy for marine inverts, the fact that the packet says live culture on it is a sigh of relief.

He said to only add a couple of drops of the stuff to my 5 gallon, but I could do it daily, or every other, if I wanted.
What do you think?

I think he thinks your feeding corals, you want your tank to turn completely green like Bloos did .

Now is there enough food in there? Or do I risk adding more and excessively polluting the whole system? I'm sure most people are NOT aiming for their tanks to turn swampy! I don't know what to do.

It will only pollute the system of all the algae dies for some reason (like if you never fertilise it), the phyto is usually used for feeding clams, corals and the like and nobody wants a reef tank with green water. You need it to go green though. I wouldn't worry about it, they remove the nutrients from the water the algae is in before bottling it, so there's not much that can go wrong just adding live algae. But you will need to fertilise it soon or it will die and then you have a problem.
Thr this maybe?

 

[jpedersen024]

Ok, we're going on the 9th day hatched, and I think most have grown a fair bit! From what I've read, we're now entering a critical stage. I'm apprehensive of course.

The water has turned a light (but murky) shade of green. Much harder to see the little guys now, but they are still in there and moving around. Once hubby brings the camera back from his business trip I will post pics.

I have started to notice small (but growing) amounts of green gathering on the bottom of the tank over the last 2 days. There is live culture in there, but no ferts. I'm concerned it's dead phyto, and if it accumulates it will pollute the tank. Then all is lost. Not good. How much/ often of a water change should I be doing to prevent this? Should I continue to add the live phyto in the meantime?

I've started a new phyto culture, currently bubbling away in my kitchen. I don't think it's green enough yet, and the only way I could fertilise was with Miracle Grow and a bit of Kent's Essential Elements. I found a helpful site on the web. The only stuff I could find locally (and I searched EVERYWHERE!!). Problem is I've read Miracle Grow uses a large amount of ammonia, which would be horrible to add to the tank. So I might be wasting energy on that bottle right now anyways. Will the Kent's so anything on its own? Is there any other 'home cooked' fert I can add?? It's been my biggest headache yet!!

I also purchased some frozen rotifers from a 'trying to be helpful' lfs employee. Useful? Or waste of money and tank polluter?

If I can make it to day 15 I will be happy!!

 

[three-fingers]

How much/ often of a water change should I be doing to prevent this? Should I continue to add the live phyto in the meantime?

I would start adding fertiliser soon...it does sound like dead phyto, water changes wont help too much and will probably just make it worse considering that with the water you will be taking out live phyto too. Although if you can, syphon the crap from the bottom.

Problem is I've read Miracle Grow uses a large amount of ammonia, which would be horrible to add to the tank. So I might be wasting energy on that bottle right now anyways. Will the Kent's so anything on its own? Is there any other 'home cooked' fert I can add??

Well the phyto will use the ammonia, but it depends how much is in there. It does need a form of nitrogen, but the shrimp should provide enough. The kent bottle will do nothing on it's own, and the only home brew ferts I can think of still require you to buy powdered chemicals of the web.

I think your best option at the moment is to buy some freshwater plant fertiliser, you sure none of your lfs's have this?

Or waste of money and tank polluter?

At this stage, yep. You can wait till the shrimp are bigger later and feed this though, shrimp love it .

 

[jpedersen024]

Ok, pics coming. My bigger concern is that we just finished day 13, and while I do see a few larvae in there still, they are few and far between. Especially compared to what they were initially. The water is (annoyingly! ) green and murky enough that I can't see through it much more than a half inch. Phyto seems to be doing well. I used my freshwater ferts (after spending a bunch too much on 'ingredients' that didn't work!!). Did the trick just fine.

Silly me.

So do you think it's possible that they have started to morph into adult stage? (hence - not seeing many) I think this would be quite early, but I see what is either detriment (clear) floating around, or teeny shrimp bodies. Hard to tell (they're only moving with the current) and then they're 'gone'.

Or is my water getting to be a problem....? I have not been doing changes, since it's hard to clean anything out and then have to 'find' all the little guys in there by accident. I tried changing a bit, but it was taking forever (with a baster - tried just aiming to suck out the crap on the bottom). Plus I am running out of salt and was hoping not to dish out the cash for a whole other box when really I'll only need a smidge more. Can I be lowering salinity now?

I'd also like to turn up the sponge filter air flow. I'm afraid they're still not strong enough to stay away from the current it would generate even at half air flow. As of now though - I get 'clouds' of white rolling fog (for lack of a better decription) that I can see where the light shines through the top of the water. Is this water crud? (particles are very very small) or salt? or phyto? Is it a concern?

 

[Invader Xan]

If I remember rightly, amano zoes only spend a week or so as larvae before growing into tiny shrimp. Afraid I don't know much more than that. Sorry.

 

[jpedersen024]

Hmm... I can't find that info anywhere...? I've only read that it can take anywhere from 30 to 90 days..? Sure would like to know though. Would love to start changing out the water if that's possible.

I think it's safe to say I've suffered massive losses in the tank. Seems to be a lot of little white 'heads' rotating around in the small current... No tails attached.

I have seen a few (stress FEW) live ones still bopping around, but really probably only a handful at most.
Frustrating, but not all that surprising.

I am still glad I opted into the challenge.... frustration, cost, effort and all... Definitely a learning experience. Not sure if I will attempt it again, but chances are good that I won't be able to resist!!! Sucker for punishment that I am. And hey, I can be much more efficient about it all next time.

For now, I will continue to 'grow out' whatever might be left hiding in the green murkiness for the next week or two. Once I begin to change the water to fresh, we'll see what really exists I guess. I do hope I will at least find a couple after all this!!

On a positive note, the tadpoles the kids and I caught have mostly all turned into frogs now, and we were able to release 4 of them tonight. Worlds apart? Yes. But helped to make me feel successful at raising SOME little critters at least!

 

[jpedersen024]

Ok, white dots are not shrimp 'heads' without tails. Upon closer inspection they are a little teardrop shape, and motoring around independently in the water. Seemingly gazillions of them. Like little white water fleas?? There are so many, it's almost like dust moving with the current.

I've not seen any shrimp today. Not shocking. Any ideas as to what these other things are?? I think I have read something in passing about a similar tank creature on a thread here before... and that it was an indication that the tank water was very healthy? Go figure.

They may have come over from my planted 55g when I transferred some algae covered leaves over although I've never noticed anything of the sort in that tank. Maybe they get eaten.

Anyone know anything about them??? Would they have harmed the shrimp larvae?

 

[three-fingers]

I doubt they will have come from your 55g....as your 55g is freshwater .
From the description they don't sound like any sort of marine daphnia or copeopod...maybe the larval stages of something though.
They are possibly rotifers, but I don't think there are many marine rotifers - and I don't know how any marine rotifer would get into your tank. The freshwater ones can be carried on the wind when a pond dries up, but I don't know why the marine one would need this ability so maybe they don't have it.
If it's rotifers then it's probably bad because they will be eating the shrimps food.

I'm sure there's lots of other possible critters, best ask at the marine section .