Grand Scheme Of Things

[LionessN3cubs]

I had company this past weekend so I didnt get to make the trip to the LFS like I wanted. Then because its summer and we've been spending time at the pool it got put off a little longer. So, yesterday I finally got around to cleaning the tank. I changed about 75% of the water...which leads me to my first question...Do you pros ever REALLY get the water clean? cuz um....my water is clear but its an illusion LOL If I were to put the vacuum back in there it would stir up allllllllll kinds of gunk as if I'd never touched it. It'd be like trying to remove the pulp from a tank of orange juice. There is so much in there its absurd. I didnt pull the sponge filter out or anything because there was just so MUCH already in the water...I figured shutting the sponge filter off while I cleaned, and then draining it down past the halfway mark on the filter, released some anyways ....eh I dunno...maybe Im just not cleaning it right or something.

On to the 2nd half. After I refilled the tank, I didnt add ammonia right back in...or baking soda. I left it sit for a few hours (filters on) and then I dumped a bunch of baking soda in (prolly about a tablespoon and a half) and then added my regular amount of ammonia. Tested this morning at the 12 hour mark and guess what? everythings ZERO!


This has been the norm when I change the water. Not the 0's perse..but the testing is always MUCH better after a fresh batch of water then as time goes on...the 12 hour mark shows more and more nitrite.

So my question is, how can I possibly keep fish when my water apparently affects the bacteria for some reason? It's not the PH because I've made sure the PH was right consistently and its been at 7.6, so thats not the problem with the water. Am I going to have to do a water change every couple of days to keep the bacteria at optimum levels? I can't afford a reverse osmosis thingy so thats out, and ya'll have said bottled water isn't a good idea either. :::sigh:::

 

[waterdrop]

(I hope MW takes this, lol)

 

[Miss Wiggle]

nope, i reckon your cycled missy

there's an equation which i can't remember exactly, something like this

each 1ppm of ammonia is converted into 3ppm of nitrite, each 1 ppm of nitrite is then converted to 3ppm of nitrate (not the exact amounts but you can see how it builds up).

so when you add 5ppm of ammonia all in one go, there is an influx of (e.g.) 15ppm of nitrite to be dealt with, the NBacs can handle this just about, but it ends up with trace amounts left, then the next day you do the same and the trace amounts left get added to yesterdays trace amounts, it'll build up to the point where you then get detectable nitrite after 12 hrs a few days after the water change. so it looks like the cycle's going in reverse but actually it's just nitrite build up.

now in real life with fish in the tank firstly there will only be production closer to 3ppm of ammonia and secondly it'll be spaced out over the day, not just dumped in all at once, so it's much easier for the NBacs to deal with so you don't get the build up. Hey presto cycled tank.

I think your ready for fish hun

(I hope MW takes this, lol)

at your service.....

oh and re the cleaning, yeah tell me about it, you can gravel vac for months on end and still stuff would come out.

so long as shortly after a water change it all looks reasonably clean and the water stats are good then your fine.

 

[LionessN3cubs]

woooooooooohoooooooooooooooo yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeers


thanks a bunch!

now on to figuring out what Im going to stock in this tank.

I dont really care for much of the selection in the pinned recommendations for a 10 gallon tank so Im going to dandy on down to the fish store and see if they have a different selection for me.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

what i'd suggest for a couple of days to test the theory is this

do a reasonable sized water change each day, straight after the w/c add your 5ppm ammonia and see where you are after 12 hrs. if each day after 12hrs it's down to 0 for everything then you know it can definatley process that amount and it's just a backlog that's building up.

 

[fishncan]

It is an exciting time when you get to go out and get your fish. Just don't overdo it at first. Whereabout in PA are you? I live just north of York

 

[waterdrop]

Once again I find that Lioness and Oliver's tank (the one I'm cycling) have lots of similarities. We've both been fishless cycling for a very long time (for different and various reasons) and have had quite a few similar observations.

Just lately I've been messing around with plants in this fishless tank and one recent weekend it finally really hit me that if your fishless cycle takes a really, really long time then it makes much more sense to begin gravel cleaning and doing water changes during the later stages. Its already been talked about a lot by BTT and Bignose et al. that water changes can mostly be a good thing during fishless, so the sciency part is supported. There are just a bunch of good things about it. If you are new to the whole hobby, then it begins to give you practice doing the gravel cleaning. I think there may be a case to be made, especially with plant debris, that lowering the amount of debris that is adding its additional bit of ammonia and nitrite, small bits all day long, will help to keep the process closer to what the quick-cycling people experience.

What do you think MW? RDD,Colin,BTT, others? I mean, for the people nearly cycled, with maybe nitrites just taking a little more than 12 hours to drop to zero, if they do a couple of large water changes in a row it will clear out nearly all the nitrites and nitrates and will be lessening debris build-up in the gravel and elsewhere. Then they can recharge their ammonia (and often their baking soda, as many of these people, like Lioness, need to keep their KH & pH up higher) and it just seems like its a win-win situation.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[LionessN3cubs]

It is an exciting time when you get to go out and get your fish. Just don't overdo it at first. Whereabout in PA are you? I live just north of York

Howdy neighbor...Im about 2 1/2 east of you!

 

[fishncan]

Philly area, I presume ? If so, have you ever gone to That Fish Place in Lancaster County?
They have quite the inventory

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Once again I find that Lioness and Oliver's tank (the one I'm cycling) have lots of similarities. We've both been fishless cycling for a very long time (for different and various reasons) and have had quite a few similar observations.

Just lately I've been messing around with plants in this fishless tank and one recent weekend it finally really hit me that if your fishless cycle takes a really, really long time then it makes much more sense to begin gravel cleaning and doing water changes during the later stages. Its already been talked about a lot by BTT and Bignose et al. that water changes can mostly be a good thing during fishless, so the sciency part is supported. There are just a bunch of good things about it. If you are new to the whole hobby, then it begins to give you practice doing the gravel cleaning. I think there may be a case to be made, especially with plant debris, that lowering the amount of debris that is adding its additional bit of ammonia and nitrite, small bits all day long, will help to keep the process closer to what the quick-cycling people experience.

What do you think MW? RDD,Colin,BTT, others? I mean, for the people nearly cycled, with maybe nitrites just taking a little more than 12 hours to drop to zero, if they do a couple of large water changes in a row it will clear out nearly all the nitrites and nitrates and will be lessening debris build-up in the gravel and elsewhere. Then they can recharge their ammonia (and often their baking soda, as many of these people, like Lioness, need to keep their KH & pH up higher) and it just seems like its a win-win situation.

~~waterdrop~~

i agree with you, as you said the science backs it up, doing water changes while cycling is no bad thing at all, if people get a chance to try out the routine maintenance a few times before putting fish in it's a bit of a road test with no danger isn't it. if you've had plants in which have struggled a touch then you'll want to clear out the substrate and so on before adding fish anyway and like you say it could be contributing that little big extra of ammonia to the tank.

 

[LionessN3cubs]

Philly area, I presume ? If so, have you ever gone to That Fish Place in Lancaster County?
They have quite the inventory

UGH thats what a mommy brain will do for ya...Im WEST of you..not east. about 2.5 hours WEST of you, 2.5 hours EAST of pittsburgh

 

[waterdrop]

Once again I find that Lioness and Oliver's tank (the one I'm cycling) have lots of similarities. We've both been fishless cycling for a very long time (for different and various reasons) and have had quite a few similar observations.

Just lately I've been messing around with plants in this fishless tank and one recent weekend it finally really hit me that if your fishless cycle takes a really, really long time then it makes much more sense to begin gravel cleaning and doing water changes during the later stages. Its already been talked about a lot by BTT and Bignose et al. that water changes can mostly be a good thing during fishless, so the sciency part is supported. There are just a bunch of good things about it. If you are new to the whole hobby, then it begins to give you practice doing the gravel cleaning. I think there may be a case to be made, especially with plant debris, that lowering the amount of debris that is adding its additional bit of ammonia and nitrite, small bits all day long, will help to keep the process closer to what the quick-cycling people experience.

What do you think MW? RDD,Colin,BTT, others? I mean, for the people nearly cycled, with maybe nitrites just taking a little more than 12 hours to drop to zero, if they do a couple of large water changes in a row it will clear out nearly all the nitrites and nitrates and will be lessening debris build-up in the gravel and elsewhere. Then they can recharge their ammonia (and often their baking soda, as many of these people, like Lioness, need to keep their KH & pH up higher) and it just seems like its a win-win situation.

~~waterdrop~~

i agree with you, as you said the science backs it up, doing water changes while cycling is no bad thing at all, if people get a chance to try out the routine maintenance a few times before putting fish in it's a bit of a road test with no danger isn't it. if you've had plants in which have struggled a touch then you'll want to clear out the substrate and so on before adding fish anyway and like you say it could be contributing that little big extra of ammonia to the tank.

Hey MW, check out the "cloudy tank" thread over in tropical discussion -- there are a couple of experienced members over there who seem to be recommending against 100% water changes (makes sense when you have fish in but doesn't make sense in the context they are discussing it in, seems) and talking about the bacteria being in the water and such - sort of going against some of the things we normally recommend and talk about over here - maybe I'm missing something but thought you'd be interested... gotta run for a bit

 

[andywg]

oh and re the cleaning, yeah tell me about it, you can gravel vac for months on end and still stuff would come out.

Then don't bother vaccing, then it doesn't matter.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

oh and re the cleaning, yeah tell me about it, you can gravel vac for months on end and still stuff would come out.

Then don't bother vaccing, then it doesn't matter.

it's certainly one approach, depends on your set up though, what fish you've got and how your filtration and tank circulation works. we've had planted tanks that have never been vacc'd.

will check that out WD.