Gill Flukes? Velvet?

[sophiesta]

Hi,

I am completely clueless as to what to do next. First a few info:

1. Water parameters. (ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, PH, temp', Hardness etc)
Ph: 7.6; ammonia: 0; Nitrite: 0; Nitrate: 10

2. A full description of the fishes symptoms.
about 2 weeks ago, my Bolivian Ram started twitching his head, the best way to compare it to is like he was having somekind of seizure. He shakes is head then scrapes his body against the glass (not on rocks or anywhere else). At first I suspected Gill flukes but there's no sign of red around the gills, no trouble breathing (doesnt go to the surface for some air). Now has white stringy feces (since this morning). Other than that, eating normally, I've checked the body and no signs of ick, anchor worms, etc. Went to my LFS where I was told that it might be velvet (which is hard to see especially on a white fish).

3. How often you do water changes and how much.
25%, every other week (lately every 4 weeks, except since treating with parasite clear - see below for details)

4. Any chemicals and treatments you add to the water.
Started treating the tank with Jungle Labs Parasite Clear (3 treatments every 48 hours with 25% water change prior to treatment, as per indications). The first treatment seemed to work well. I observed the little guy and the "twitching" was going on once every minute prior to medication. The day after, it was twitching its head once every 6 minutes, so I thought things were improving. Now today, after 3 treatments, the twitching is back to once every minute + the white stringy feces, which worries me.

5. What tank mates are in the tank.
11 rummynoses, 9 penguin tetras

6. Tank size.
30 gal. tank's been set up for 5 years now

7. Finally Have you recently added any new fish? No

Do you have any idea what disease I'm dealing with here? Also, should I go with a second round (3 treatments) of Jungle Parasite clear or switch to another medicine? note that here in Canada, we do not have access to Metro. I do have the following medications on hand: JL Internal Parasite Guard (sodium chl., metro, acri), Mycopur (acriflavine) for velvet, PraziPro and Paraguard.

Your help would be greatly appreciated, as I am completely clueless as to wich route to go next.

Sophie

 

[Colin_T]

If the ram has had the problem for 2 weeks then it isn’t velvet. Velvet appears as a gold or white sheen over the fish. It is easy enough to see on the fins but can be tricky on the body. However, it also kills quite quickly, usually within a week of any symptoms appearing, assuming the tank isn’t treated. It should also respond to treatment quite quickly and within a few days of the medication being added the fish should no longer be flicking or rubbing on ornaments.

Velvet does not cause the fish to produce a stringy white poo. This is caused by an internal problem, usually an internal bacterial or protozoan infection.
Also the fact no new fishes have been added to the tank would cancel out velvet because it doesn’t normally sit in a tank for years and then suddenly appear. It needs to be introduced with a sick fish or contaminated water.

Many fish have gill flukes but they normally don’t cause any problems unless they are in huge numbers. Then the fish breathe heavily and often gasp at the surface or near the outlet of a filter. Gill flukes take time to kill a fish, (usually many weeks). They basically suck the blood out of them and build up in numbers covering the gill filaments, restricting the fish from being able to take in oxygen. Then the fish waste away, (get skinny and pale) before dieing.

I would say the fish has an external protozoan infection and an internal bacterial or protozoan infection. The external problem should be cleared up with any medication containing Malachite Green or copper.
The internal problem could be treated with an antibiotic but it may or may not work. Internal problems are always difficult to treat. You mention you don’t have access to Metro, (I assume Metronidazole). You might be able to get it from a vet but they would want to see the fish first. One of the products you mentioned “JL Internal Parasite Guard (sodium chl., metro, acri)”, has metro (possibly metronidazole) in it. You could try that for the internal problem.

Prazi Pro sounds like an intestinal wormer and fluke treatment. It probably has Praziquantel in and will be fine to treat the fish for gill flukes later on if you choose to.

I wouldn’t bother using the Jungle Parasite clear but I would do some big water changes (50%) and gravel clean the entire tank each day for a few days to a week. Also check the filter and clean that if it hasn’t been done for a while. Filters should be cleaned each month regardless of how dirty they are. Most fish health problems are caused by dirty environmental conditions, (a build up of gunk in the gravel or filter). Protozoan infections are just about always caused by this.
Make sure any new water going into the tank is free of chlorine and has a similar temp to the tank.
If you have a power filter don’t wash the filter materials out under tap water. Clean them in a bucket of tank water and then tip the dirty water out on the lawn.

Once the tank has been cleaned up treat it with the JL internal parasite guard and see if it helps clear up the stringy white poo. Then after that course of treatment is finished, and if the fish are still showing problems, treat the tank with a medication containing Malachite Green or Copper. If you can find a product called “Waterlife Protozin” then that should work on the external problem.

The internal problem is more of an issue right now because it could be causing irreparable damage to the fish’s internal organs.

 

[sophiesta]

Thanks for the quick and very detailed reply Colin.

One question though, Jungle Parasite Clear, does contain Metronidazole. here's the ingredient list taken from their website: "Active ingredients: praziquantel; N-[[(N-Chlorophenyl)amino]carbon 1]-2,6-difluorobenzamide; metronidazole; acriflavine." The problem is, the ingredient list doesn't specify the exact amount of each ingredients. Knowing this should I still switch to Internal Parasite Guard? Since the Metronidazole is the 2nd ingredient in the ingredient list of the JL Internal Parasite Guard, I guess it contains more than the Parasite Clear. (hope I'm making sense here ) To answer your question, I do not have access to pure Metronidazole.

If switching to Internal Parasite Guard, how to proceed, put carbon in filter to remove previous medication (Parasite Clear)? Please advise. Sorry for all the questions. I am leaving tomorrow on vacation and my teenage son will take care of the treatments I just want to give him proper instructions before I leave.

Again, thanks for all your help.

If the ram has had the problem for 2 weeks then it isn’t velvet. Velvet appears as a gold or white sheen over the fish. It is easy enough to see on the fins but can be tricky on the body. However, it also kills quite quickly, usually within a week of any symptoms appearing, assuming the tank isn’t treated. It should also respond to treatment quite quickly and within a few days of the medication being added the fish should no longer be flicking or rubbing on ornaments.

Velvet does not cause the fish to produce a stringy white poo. This is caused by an internal problem, usually an internal bacterial or protozoan infection.
Also the fact no new fishes have been added to the tank would cancel out velvet because it doesn’t normally sit in a tank for years and then suddenly appear. It needs to be introduced with a sick fish or contaminated water.

Many fish have gill flukes but they normally don’t cause any problems unless they are in huge numbers. Then the fish breathe heavily and often gasp at the surface or near the outlet of a filter. Gill flukes take time to kill a fish, (usually many weeks). They basically suck the blood out of them and build up in numbers covering the gill filaments, restricting the fish from being able to take in oxygen. Then the fish waste away, (get skinny and pale) before dieing.

I would say the fish has an external protozoan infection and an internal bacterial or protozoan infection. The external problem should be cleared up with any medication containing Malachite Green or copper.
The internal problem could be treated with an antibiotic but it may or may not work. Internal problems are always difficult to treat. You mention you don’t have access to Metro, (I assume Metronidazole). You might be able to get it from a vet but they would want to see the fish first. One of the products you mentioned “JL Internal Parasite Guard (sodium chl., metro, acri)”, has metro (possibly metronidazole) in it. You could try that for the internal problem.

Prazi Pro sounds like an intestinal wormer and fluke treatment. It probably has Praziquantel in and will be fine to treat the fish for gill flukes later on if you choose to.

I wouldn’t bother using the Jungle Parasite clear but I would do some big water changes (50%) and gravel clean the entire tank each day for a few days to a week. Also check the filter and clean that if it hasn’t been done for a while. Filters should be cleaned each month regardless of how dirty they are. Most fish health problems are caused by dirty environmental conditions, (a build up of gunk in the gravel or filter). Protozoan infections are just about always caused by this.
Make sure any new water going into the tank is free of chlorine and has a similar temp to the tank.
If you have a power filter don’t wash the filter materials out under tap water. Clean them in a bucket of tank water and then tip the dirty water out on the lawn.

Once the tank has been cleaned up treat it with the JL internal parasite guard and see if it helps clear up the stringy white poo. Then after that course of treatment is finished, and if the fish are still showing problems, treat the tank with a medication containing Malachite Green or Copper. If you can find a product called “Waterlife Protozin” then that should work on the external problem.

The internal problem is more of an issue right now because it could be causing irreparable damage to the fish’s internal organs.

 

[Colin_T]

If the Jungle Parasite Guard didn’t work the first time then switch to a different medication, (the JL Internal Parasite Guard).
You are correct in assuming the first ingredients are usually the ones in highest concentration, so if the Internal Parasite Guard has Metronidazole as its second drug, then it probably has more of it compared to the previous medication.

To remove any remnants of the other drug simply do a couple of 50-75% water changes and gravel clean the tank. This should lower the levels quite considerably. Then treat with the new drug.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine and has a similar temperature to the tank.
If you don’t have time to do the water changes then put some carbon in the filter overnight. This should remove any remaining medication. Then remove the carbon before using the new drug.

Make sure your son checks for any dead fish while you are away. If one dies and isn’t removed it will exacerbate the problem.

Have a nice trip and hopefully the fish will be better when you return.

 

[sophiesta]

Well, I'm back from vacation after two weeks, and the Ram is still acting the same. While I was out, my son did treat with Prazipro but, to make a long story short, hasn't used the right measures so the treatment wasn't done properly . I did a video yesterday so you can see the ram's behaviour, look more towards the end of the video, you can see how his head is twitching. As they say "A picture is worth a thousand words".

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No more white poo, so I guess this is good news, but the head twitching is still on (which BTW is more frequent when the lights are on). Note also, this may not be relevant but, I did notice a snail which I never had before. The more I read on the subject and the more I suspect Gill Flukes, which one of the first symptoms is "shaking of the head like they're trying to get rid of something". I do have Prazipro and I also got my hands on some Metronidazole that I got from a LFS. There, I was told that this was probably a case of some parasite that is now affecting the nervous system/brain and to use Metronidazole. I did treat the tank with this medicine two days ago, and started feeding soaked bloodworms yesterday. But, as mentionned, I am suspecting gill flukes, which is better treated with Prazipro (praziquantel). As to make matters worst, I have a penguin tetra with dropsy (very bloated + trouble swimming).

I really don't know what to do and, again, your help would be greatly appreciated. Should I stick to the Metronidazole or PraziPro?
Also do Amano shrimps tolerate Metrodinazole? I have removed them but I have to put them back in the tank someday.

Sophie