Gh/kh Questions!

thabigo

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OK So Not sure if I am posting in the Right Section. My Tank is fully cycled, but my question pertains to Hardness of the water. I have been reading some things about it.
 
I tested my Water quality on both my 5 gallon Tank / 15 Gallon Tank
 
Both gave me readings about 1-3 Drops so that translates to 1-3 dKH = 18 - 50 ppm = Soft water
 
Now my PH level is at a nice 7.4
 
I have guppies in both tanks. 5 gallon = 1 male / 1 females  / 4 female fry (Breeder Tank)
 
15 Gallon  = 2 Adult Males / 6 Young adult Males
 
I was reading about guppies and says that they prefer a hardness level of around 8 - 12.
 
So now my question is, will my guppies be ok with a low hardness level or should I take the proper steps into increasing my Hardness levels?
 
I also bought a TDS Meter http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001RK38LU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and that Gave me a reading of 180 PPM. Not sure if that is the same as the KH/GH testing. 
 
I would greatly appreciate any information on this subject
 
Thanks,
 
Orlando
 
I guess no1 know anything about water hardness.... so much for these forums.. 
 
Lets start with the test for hardness- they are not 1 -3 drops they are an exact number of drops.
 
A TDS meter reads GH and KH and more. It is a better reading than either of those tests but it deals with the total and not the various components. !80 ppm is not soft water. At 83 ppm my water is on the soft side but not real soft.
 
Have a read here it is a decent explanation for what you want to know. http://www.globalw.com/support/hardness.html
 
As you noted, water hardness is GH and kH, but I think it is important to know the difference. 
 
GH is the "general hardness" of your water. It is composed mainly of calcium and magnesium. So the GH test kit will tell you the levels of calcium and magnesium in your water.
 
kH is the "carbonate hardness" of your water. It is composed usually of sodium bicarbonate or potassium bicarbonate. kH determines your water's buffering capacity, meaning it determines how well your water can buffer pH changes. Having kH prevents pH swings, in short. (Increasing of kH increase pH, as a note.)
 
You will find on the internet that they will describe fish requirements in a broad term of "hardness," and that measured in degrees kH, which doesn't really tell you much about the needs of the fish.
 
Fish do not have any KH requirement. But here is a good explanation of GH and KH:
 
 

Buffering Capacity (KH, Alkalinity)
Buffering capacity refers to water's ability to keep the pH stable as acids or bases are added. pH and buffering capacity are intertwined with one another; although one might think that adding equal volumes of an acid and neutral water would result in a pH halfway in between, this rarely happens in practice. If the water has sufficient buffering capacity, the buffering capacity can absorb and neutralize the added acid without significantly changing the pH. Conceptually, a buffer acts somewhat like a large sponge. As more acid is added, the ``sponge'' absorbs the acid without changing the pH much. The ``sponge's'' capacity is limited however; once the buffering capacity is used up, the pH changes more rapidly as acids are added.
Buffering has both positive and negative consequences. On the plus side, the nitrogen cycle produces nitric acid (nitrate). Without buffering, your tank's pH would drop over time (a bad thing). With sufficient buffering, the pH stays stable (a good thing). On the negative side, hard tap water often almost always has a large buffering capacity. If the pH of the water is too high for your fish, the buffering capacity makes it difficult to lower the pH to a more appropriate value. Naive attempts to change the pH of water usually fail because buffering effects are ignored.
In freshwater aquariums, most of water's buffering capacity is due to carbonates and bicarbonates. Thus, the terms ``carbonate hardness'' (KH), ``alkalinity'' and ``buffering capacity'' are used interchangeably. Although technically not the same things, they are equivalent in practice in the context of fishkeeping. Note: the term ``alkalinity'' should not be confused with the term ``alkaline''. Alkalinity refers to buffering, while alkaline refers to a solution that is a base (i.e., pH > 7).
How much buffering does your tank need? Most aquarium buffering capacity test kits actually measure KH. The larger the KH, the more resistant to pH changes your water will be. A tank's KH should be high enough to prevent large pH swings in your tank over time. If your KH is below roughly 4.5 dH, you should pay special attention to your tank's pH (e.g, test weekly, until you get a feel for how stable the pH is). This is ESPECIALLY important if you neglect to do frequent partial water changes. In particular, the nitrogen cycle creates a tendency for an established tank's pH to decrease over time. The exact amount of pH change depends on the quantity and rate of nitrates produced, as well as the KH. If your pH drops more than roughly two tenths of a point over a month, you should consider increasing the KH or performing partial water changes more frequently. KH doesn't affect fish directly, so there is no need to match fish species to a particular KH.
Note: it is not a good idea to use distilled water in your tank. By definition, distilled water has essentially no KH. That means that adding even a little bit of acid will change the pH significantly (stressing fish). Because of its instability, distilled (or any essentially pure water) is never used directly. Tap water or other salts must first be added to it in order to increase its GH and KH.

General Hardness (GH)
General hardness (GH) refers to the dissolved concentration of magnesium and calcium ions. When fish are said to prefer ``soft'' or ``hard'' water, it is GH (not KH) that is being referred to.
Note: GH, KH and pH form the Bermuda's Triangle of water chemistry. Although the three properties are distinct, they all interact with each other to varying degrees, making it difficult to adjust one without impacting the other. That is one reason why beginning aquarists are advised NOT to tamper with these parameters unless absolutely necessary. As an example, ``hard'' water frequently often comes from limestone aquifers. Limestone contains calcium carbonate, which when dissolved in water increases both the GH (from calcium) and KH (from carbonate) components. Increasing the KH component also usually increases pH as well. Conceptually, the KH acts as a ``sponge'' absorbing the acid present in the water, raising the water's pH.
Water hardness follows the following guidelines. The unit dH means ``degree hardness'', while ppm means ``parts per million'', which is roughly equivalent to mg/L in water. 1 unit dH equals 17.8 ppm CaCO3. Most test kits give the hardness in units of CaCO3; this means the hardness is equivalent to that much CaCO3 in water but does not mean it actually came from CaCO3.

General Hardness

0 - 4 dH, 0 - 70 ppm : very soft
4 - 8 dH, 70 - 140 ppm : soft
8 - 12 dH, 140 - 210 ppm : medium hard
12 - 18 dH, 210 - 320 ppm : fairly hard
18 - 30 dH, 320 - 530 ppm : hard
higher : liquid rock (Lake Malawi and Los Angeles, CA)
from http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-chem.html
 
Even though it may not be a requirement it can be important to more fragile fish types, since if you don't have it, pH could swing!
In my platy tank, although platies are fairly hardy, I saw an improvement in their health by raising my kH from 0 to 3.
 
kc- that is not the same thing as a fish having a specific KH requirement.
 
GH/KH/pH are intertwined. Fish need a GH in a given range and the same for pH, but not for KH. However, the other two are part of a three legged stool, change one and the others can be affected. And KH can contribute to TDS which is the more important measure here anyway. So by raising your KH you raised them as well and that may have been the benefit not because it was done specifically by carbonates. Platys prefer harder water (higher TDS) with an alkaline pH. Raising the KH for sure helps keep pH up as well. How do you raise your KH?
 
ohmy.png
 I never even had that thought! That makes total sense though. 
 
I keep them kH 3 GH 5-6 pH high 7's and TDS in the 300s. My water is 0/0 kH/GH out of the tap, so I add sodium bicarb. and Seachem Replenish to bring it up. I started my exploration in modifying water parameters when I got into shrimp (although I am selling my shrimp soon) and the plants benefit greatly from the GH.
 
Thanks for pointing out what you did. Love learning and increasing my understanding!
 
kcoscia, what fish are you keeping, or is it just shrimp (and plants)?  I ask because sodium bicarbonate is not advisable long-term for soft water fish.
 
Orlando, to your initial question on the guppies.  Yes, guppies like all livebearers will fare better in moderately hard or harder water.  The calcium and magnesium in such water is critical to their physiology.  But having said that, guppies seem to be able to manage better than other livebearers in less than ideal parameters, up to a point anyway.  This probably has some connection to the general decline in their physiology, disease resistance, etc. resulting from the generations of commercial inbreeding.
 
Byron. 
 
Platys, bettas, shrimp (but not anymore) and axolotls
 
Are you concerns stemming from the addition of sodium to the water and it's potential damaging effects? The amount I add (enough to reach kH of 3) isn't high enough to cause a problem. 
 
The problem is that sodium doesn't evaporate. So over time you will build up the sodium content in the water. Each week some amount of water evaporates from all tanks. When we do our weekly maint. and water changes we replace this lost water. However, any sodium in the evaporated water remains in the tank, Sooner or later the water will become a problem as the concentration of sodium rises over time.
 
Those folks who keep sw tanks know this which is why they top up a tank in which water has evaporated using water that has no salt in it.
 
kcoscia, you have a mix that I personally wouldn't recommend being kept together, meaning soft and hard water fish (unless you have them in separate tanks).  Platy really need more mineral than this, I would say 9-10 dGH is minimum.  Betta by contrast need no more than the 5-6 dGH and they would be fine even in less [not saying you need less, just that they can manage in less].  Axolotl I am not familiar with (water params I mean, I know what axolotl is).
 
In addition to what TwoTankAmin said, over time sodium carbonate does not buffer pH well.  You would be better taqking two course of action.  First, for the tank with the platy and similar hard water fish, raise the GH and pH (and have buffering) for their needs.  Easiest way to do this when you have soft water (as I do too) is with a calcareous substrate.  Second, for the Betta and any other soft water fish, forget the buffering as the pH lowering will benefit these fish.  I use no buffering at all in my tanks of soft water fish and for 20+ years I have had no issues.  I have fish spawning all over the place.
 
Byron.
 
All are in separate tanks OMG that would be an AWFUL combination. I am an experienced aquarist, although new to this particular forum.
I know about the top off information from shrimp keeping.
I also do 50% (or greater) water changes weekly in all tanks. Since I change such amounts of water per week, I don't believe I will run into a sodium problem. I researched on my main forum (plantedtank.net) and the majority over there use sodium bicarb. safely and regularly. 
Thanks for the in depth info. though. Very helpful overall. I may stop the addition in my betta tank, thanks to your advice!
 
kcoscia said:
All are in separate tanks OMG that would be an AWFUL combination. I am an experienced aquarist, although new to this particular forum.
I know about the top off information from shrimp keeping.
I also do 50% (or greater) water changes weekly in all tanks. Since I change such amounts of water per week, I don't believe I will run into a sodium problem. I researched on my main forum (plantedtank.net) and the majority over there use sodium bicarb. safely and regularly. 
Thanks for the in depth info. though. Very helpful overall. I may stop the addition in my betta tank, thanks to your advice!
People often think I just want to prolong arguments when I answer follow-ups; I don't.  It's just that when I see something misleading I feel it only right to point it out in case others who may not have the same level of understanding run off with it.
 
Anyway, point here is that your hard water fish will be OK with the sodium, but Betta certainly will not, so good idea there.  But as for the planted tank forums, the problem with those (and I belong to several) is that most of them are plant aquarists and not fish, or fish are secondary to plants.  I had one well-known individual argue with me over water changes, actually advocating that I should not be doing them.  I'm sorry, but I really don't care if water changes may have some miniscule impact on CO2 and my plants, I am not going to deny them to my fish as I am well able after 25 years to recongize the considerable benefits from just the fish every change.  So, one has to keep this in mind when discussing water chemistry on plant forums.
 
Byron.
 
I'm with you on the water changes. That's part of the reason I like EI dosing so much! 
 
Okay so overview:
 
Hard water fish are fine with sodium, so platys are okay to take sodium bicarb.
Bettas would prefer I don't add the sodium bicarb. That is no problem for me to cancel out at all.
 
Axolotls, no one really has much info. on sodium bicarb. with them and mine are fine. They also like hard water (kH >4 GH>6) so it seems like this will be okay.
 
Thanks for all your info byron!
 
Do you know any easy ways to bring up kH safely without sodium? I gotta look into this.
 

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