German Blue Ram & Apistogramma Aggression Questions

[DRB]

G'day all
Quick question here, in my community tank i have a single male German Blue Ram, and a newly added Male & Female Pair of Apistogramma Viejita.
Pretty much as soon as I added them, the German Blue started hassling both of them, and it only seems to be getting worse, it's escalated into proper fights with both swimming away with visible fin nips.
The Apisto male never seeks out the GBR, it's the GBR that is being the bully here.. maybe because at the moment he's a little bigger than the Apisto pair, or maybe not, I dont know.
 
So questions I have for those who can help are:
 
Is this because there is no female for the GBR, and as they are closely related it may be fights over the Apisto Female?
 
Could these fights cause death, or is it just them playing silly buggers?
 
Thanks, hope someone can help.
 

 

[FreshwaterAfishianado]

What size tank are they in? I don't think it is generally advised to keep multiple apisto.species together, though that's not to say its impossible. In nature different species of apisto would almost never coexist, during most of the year they live in small areas of.flooded forest or very slow moving streams that run into larger rivers with a much higher pH. These fish fit into a very specific niche in their ecosystems and would directly compete with eachother. I don't think the aggression is over the female, I think.it is your GBR trying to assert his dominance. From his perspective the viejitas have invaded his territory.

You may have to separate them, but you could try rearranging the decor so that there are no longer any set territories. Also make sure there are lots of caves or noddy holes for them to hide in. If the aggression continues to escalate you may need to separate them though.

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Just to clarify that a GBR is not an apisto; it's a ram - they a quite different fish but are both "dwarf chichlids" from South America.
 
I think the most important factor here is tank size, so if you could please let us know the size/dimensions of the tank that would be great. 
 
Your GBR and apistos are having disagreements as to who gets to sleep where basically lol. As the GBR was there first it has an established territory. Normally I would say that apistos are more aggressive than rams but since they are new in town it's the other way around. In a large enough tank these fish could live together peacefully but you may have a problem when/if the apistos spawn as they will protect their eggs/fry with a vengeance and sometimes won't tolerate other fish. You just have to play it by ear. 
 
I'm thinking you need something like a 3 ft long tank if you want to keep these two species together happily. But I've never kept apistos myself so I'm just going off of what I've read about them. You need to have decor in the tank that creates physical territories. Your apistos and ram will choose an area that has a "shape" to it above the actual size of the territory - I'm not sure if that makes sense lol.

Oh, one more thing. A little bit of aggression/bickering between cichlids is normal and fine. It's when you have a fish that is constantly pinned down with physical damage being done, showing signs of stress that you need to worry. This may last a short period and they will agree on territory on their own in time - you'll just have to make the call really. 
 
Again it's all dependant on if your tank is big enough. 

 

[FreshwaterAfishianado]

Though technically true that a GBR isn't an Apistogramna, saying that they're distinctly different fish isn't exactly true either.

The name of this species has been under debate since its discovery. It has also been called Microgeophagus Ramirezi, Papiliochromis Ramirezi, Geophagus Ramirezi and Apistogramma Ramirezi. It has only been in very recent years that Mikrogeophagus was officially recognized as the valid name, and some taxonomists still believe that this genus shouldn't exist. There are currently only 2 species recognized in Mikrogeophagus, M. Ramirezi and M. Altispinosis the GBR and the Bolivian Ram.

So for all practical purposes a GBR could still be considered an apisto. They share physical characteristics, behavioral similarity and even fill.the same ecological niche.

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Whether you agree with the classification or not,  the fact remains that rams and apisogrammas are not in the same genus and shouldn't be referred to as such. The reason I brought it up was because your original post was misleading as you referred to both rams and apistos, as apistos.

 

[FreshwaterAfishianado]

Just to clarify that a GBR is not an apisto; it's a ram - they a quite different fish but are both "dwarf chichlids" from South America.
 
 

Calling these fish "quite different" is much more misleading than lumping them with a genus that they were actually a part of for several decades, the name "ram" was given to.the species by aquarium hobbyists, not biologists or taxonomists. As I said, for all practical purposes in an aquarium they still should be treated as Apistos.

But, no matter what the fish is called, the advice on their behavior is still the same.

Here is a quote on the subject from seriouslyfish.com

--

The grouping has a confused taxonomic history with the correct placement and spelling of type species M. ramirezi a source of confusion for several decades prior to the publication of Kullander (2011).M. ramirezi was described as a member of the genus Apistogramma but later affiliated with the name Microgeophagus in an aquarium book by Hans Frey (1957) who did not provide diagnostic characters and only suggested it might be placed into that genus in the future.The name did not achieve general acceptance until 1971 when Axelrod used it in a popular book about breeding aquarium fishes although Klee (1971) rejected this and suggested that the species should instead be included in Geophagus.Later Kullander (1977) described the new genus Papiliochromis with P. ramirezi as type species and in the same paper considered Microgeophagus to be an unavailable name without providing precise detail as to why.Papiliochromis was accepted in both hobbyist and scientific literature until Bailey and Robins (1982) concluded that Microgeophagus sensu Axelrod (1971) was the oldest available name for a cichlid genus with A. ramirezias type species and thus should be considered valid.Géry (1983, 1986) argued that Microgeophagus sensu Frey (1957) is the oldest available name for the genus, Allgayer (1985) considered Papiliochromis valid while Kullander (1998) used Mikrogeophagus, a name he considered the oldest available based on its inclusion as a valid name in Jeg har akvarium, a Danish language aquarium book published in 1968, with Microgeophagus sensu Frey (1957) an unavailable nomen nudumlacking both a diagnosis and type species.The genus Mikrogeophagus is thus attributed to Jens Meulengracht-Madsen, 1968, who authored the relevant sections in the book (it was edited by Schiøtz and Christensen), but its considered an involuntary nomenclatural act because the author believed he was using an existing name.Mikrogeophagus therefore became widely-accepted following Kullander (1998) although a number of authors evidently did not agree.After a period of inactivity Isbrücker (2011) re-opened the issue and argued that Microgeophagus sensu Frey (1957) is actually the oldest available name for the genus but this was definitively rejected by Kullander (2011) who published a detailed analysis of the different generic names that have been used for the species, the majority of which were derived from aquarium, rather than scientific, literature.Although Mikrogeophagus is now generally accepted to be correct the species M. ramirezi thus commonly appears in older aquarium literature as Apistogramma ramirezi, Microgeophagus ramirezi or Papiliochromis ramirezi.Mikrogeophagus and a number of related genera are often included in the putative subfamily Geophaginae.
--

 

[DRB]

G'day guys and gals
Getting a bit off topic now so gonna steer it back on track..
 
As far as calling GBR's Apistos i only said they were closely related and could this cause the issues?
 
Tank dimensions are 2.6 Foot X 1.4 Foot X 1.9 Foot, and also well aware of having all the caves, nooks and crannys to help stem this sort of stuff. Tank is decently planted and has a nice selection of rock and driftwood.
 
Like i mentioned mainly all i am wondering here is are the fights over the female Apisto, if not then it's clearly territorial and i can sort that out one way or another, and then would the fights likely get serious to the point of death?
 
It sounds like death isn't likely, and the fights will just continue until they figure out what's what?
 
Right now tank has 3 Corydoras Sterbai, 3 Kribensis (1 Male - 2 Female), 1 Neon Dwarf Gourami (Male), 6 Rummy Nose Tetra, GBR (Male, the one in question) and 2 Apistogramma Viejita (1 Male - 1 Female). Haven't had any trouble until now with any of them, the Kribs haven't spawned yet so that'll be a different story all together.

 

[FreshwaterAfishianado]

The fights are most likely over territory, not the female. As far as fighting to the death, I think its unlikely, however the stress from consistant aggression could stress the fish to a point that compromises their immune systems. If that happens then the fish being bullied is susceptible to disease and infection, which could kill them. It also sounds like you have a lot of potentially aggressive species all dwelling on the bottom for that size of tank.

Like AA said, I think you will have to play this by ear, if they're able to establish new territories then great, but if you feel that the aggression is getting excessive just be ready to separate them.

 

[Ruskull]

If I'm not mistaken those dimensions would be roughly equivalent to 52 gallons, which would be great but you have a lot of bottom dwellers and not as much footprint as the tank volume would suggest.  That could be the problem right there.  I bet the Dwarf G hangs around the top most of the time even though they typically breeze around the whole tank.

 

[DRB]

Watched another of their fights, bloody GBR is just being a menace..
Im pretty sure its territory as well, so now hes moved to another tank.

My Dwarf Gourami spends equal time everywhere really, never had an issue with any of them until now.
As soon as i took the GBR out the little Apistos are now crusing around everywhere instead of hiding in the driftwood.

Tank is 165L, footprint should be just enough for the cribs and apistos to share, my rock and wood are located at either end, not in the middle as to avoid any mid tank territory claims when they spawn.

 

[FreshwaterAfishianado]

Glad to hear you were able to resolve the aggression and keep all the fish. Do you have any pictures of this tank? It sounds like an interesting setup

 

[DRB]

There's some photos under my thread davids 165L in the members aquariums, but ive since added some new plants/rock and taken away the hood mounted light/filter to put a fluval 206 and 60cm led bank, also made up acrylic lids for it.