Gasping Loach

[Uboat304]

Sorry to hear the problems your having with your clowns, they are fantastic fish, be ultra carefull when purchasing these fish in future, ive travelled to 5 different lfs in the last week trying to find healthy examples, alot look fine but when i return 2 days later to purchase they all show signs of ich so ive resorted to putting off until the quarentine tank is empty then i'll get some and treat them regardless (they all look clean at 1st) read up on articles about ich (whitespot) and understand how the parasite's life cycle works only then will you be able to act against it.. (As Wilder so kindly pointed out to me) when the spots dissapear its just another part of the cycle and your troubles are just starting as alot of people think it has cleared up and give up on treatment, when infact it is multiplying in your tank ready to attach itself to your fish..

Yes, I read about the cycle of the parasite, I'll continue the med for a while, I think its in the swimming stage (ie. spots off) now. I agree - the loaches looked fine at the stockists, I hear its a very common problem - I just hate to see the suffering

I use the head off a fluval 4+ (sometimes the filter aswell) with the top just breaking the water in the 60 as i found the juwel stock item to be pretty lame..

When things settle I run the stock juwel item in the 60 aswell as 2 small foam filters (very cheap) powered via a small air pump and only run the fluval when undergoing treatment to break the waters surface up.

I'm afraid I'm a bit of a newcomer to all this so haven't a clue what all those things are?! Do you have any links to what they are?

Really though i would think twice about keeping loaches in the Rekord 60 my clowns have the full run of the trigon 350 and they use it to its full as they are probbably the most active / nosey fish in the tank and love to play.

Really annoyed with the stockists that they said they'd be fine in my tank. I had a snail 'issue' and he said they'd be great at sorting that out - and they were! But I'm suprised I've been given bad advice; I would have thought that they would know though, as they look after so many fish...

Mine when purchased struggled as their gills were red and inflamed a day later the spots appeared but luckily enough i treat them in time (although it did spread to other fish) all is ok, i must add, i treat according to the instructions then carried out a 30% water change then added one extra dose 4 days later whilst mainting a temp of 30°, there is now no sign of the parasite or any symtoms from the fish. I did use protozin at the full dose rate but unless you have a large aquarium and plenty 02 then i would follow other treatment as there's mixed feelings regarding protozin and clowns (worked ok for me but that may be a one off)..

Maybe there is hope then? Water change definately in order... Where is a good online place to buy equipment from btw? I love fish keeping but get pretty stressed myself when the fish aren't happy!

Thanks

 

[kev350d]

I buy alot of my hardware from the local ads or ebay, as for meds i use my lfs apart from the aqua safe as i buy it online http/www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/fish/water_a...nditioner/35921 (alot cheaper). The small filters can be found in any lfs at aroound £3.99 (small foam filter powered by air) and you can use a power head to diffuse the o2 into the water http/www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/fish/technic...her_pumps/19464 just place a bit of tight held in place with an elastic band so no large debri is sucked in..

 

[WILDER]

http/www.bollmoraakvarieklubb.org/artikl...own%20loach.htm

 

[kev350d]

Wilder im sure your aware as youve been a great help when researching loaches but one thing that wasnt mentioned in my prior reply is that the loach i had that 1st revealed signs of ich is now very skinny although eating very well (i put this down to "skinny disease" internal parasite or TB, hence why he is so easy to play host to parasites and after a lot of swatting up on the clown loach in particular i believe the main cause of ich contamination is due to a weakened immune system through internal parasite infections or tb, hence why this species is always 1st in the tank to dispay symptoms of anything out of the ordinary).

When you start reading about the condition our fish may be in when buying from the lfs (especially one who wants your cash and cares nothing for the hobby or his livestock for that matter) it can make the whole affair quite daunting and in all honesty felt like drawing the curtain on the hobby when i started reading up on fish disease.

Do these sites make us over paranoid / is a little knowlege dangerous because as i remember 10yr ago i kept fish (tropical) without a problem losing the odd one to stress shortly after introduction, the internet has now made me examine every fish i intend to purchase and the ones i have and it seems i find a problem in most when scrutinised, for example a couple of the wifes guppies have what i used to call saddle back (dont know the term now) but mainly occurs in females, noticed ich right away in main tank caused via loaches newly introduced "SHOULD HAVE QUARENTINED THEM" , now one of my loaches shows signs of his skin tight against his bones to the back of his head just infront of his dorsal.

I know I have went on a little but dont you think the problems arnt actually with our set ups but are more likely related to poor infected fish we are buying and the fact we keep them alive longer or dont re home them after a couple days like a lfs hence how we notice the issue more.

I really do love these fish infact they are my favorite species but the horror of what can come with them from their horrific treatment from capture to shipping right the way to our tanks is just all to much in comparison to home bred fish and to think we expect them to survive a healthy life is just asking to much.

Yes we may hit lucky and get a 100% fit fish but i bet more fall by the way side as there is no way of knowing what fish is healthy and whats not if the parasite hasnt took its toll when we see them happily shoaling in the dealers tanks...

Dont beat yourself up as im almost positive these fish have underlying issues that far exeed our level of care and as wilder stated in another thread "ich can be a sign of a bigger underlying issue" i now guess that he meant internal parasites so please if you do manage to save your loaches keep an eye open for other tell tale signs of infection..

 

[WILDER]

I won't buy a fish unless I can quarantine the fish, lfs, stores, are full of deseased fish.
Not helping with them coming from the wild either.
The stores around my area are terrible, never seem to be able to ever get a complete healthy fish.
Buying from breeders is the best way to go.
Sorry kev my english skills are no good, but I do care for fish and I wish we didn't have to see so many ill fish around, mainly due to fish keepers not putting there new fish in a quarantine tank, then infecting the healthy ones there had a while.
Seen a big increase in internal parasites.

 

[WILDER]

I agree the fish that are shipped poor things have to go through a long journey, then into a lfs tank, then straight out again, know wonder most of them don't make it.
The lfs put the fish up for sale to fast, stressed to death causing desease.
Lfs only tend to look after the more expensive fish and take better care of them.

 

[kev350d]

Sorry kev my english skills are no good, but I do care for fish and I wish we didn't have to see so many ill fish around, mainly due to fish keepers not putting there new fish in a quarantine tank, then infecting the healthy ones there had a while.
Seen a big increase in internal parasites.

Your english skills are fine mate and you have been a huge help getting my ass back involved in this hobby, and your advice has been well served.

10 year ago i used to go to the same lfs (betta aquatics) Byker (newcastle) and before i went there my parents used them "gives an idea how long they have been around" only issues i had were neon tetra disease and a bout of fin rot that later turned out to be over zelous tiger barbs lol. (Had my tank 3yrs it was a custom built 6ft) when i parted company with my tank it went with the original stock minus a few tetras and the entire school of tiger barbs, so this in itself tells me the quality of fish we buy now has severly dropped but being a noob as such i thought things would have improved with the years that have passed.

I wont give up and hope that Uboat304 also holds his chin up and maybies checks the stock at his lfs as i can almost guarentee if any of the stock they had still exists they will show signs and he can rest assured it wasnt of his making.

 

[Uboat304]

Sorry kev my english skills are no good, but I do care for fish and I wish we didn't have to see so many ill fish around, mainly due to fish keepers not putting there new fish in a quarantine tank, then infecting the healthy ones there had a while.
Seen a big increase in internal parasites.

Your english skills are fine mate and you have been a huge help getting my ass back involved in this hobby, and your advice has been well served.

10 year ago i used to go to the same lfs (betta aquatics) Byker (newcastle) and before i went there my parents used them "gives an idea how long they have been around" only issues i had were neon tetra disease and a bout of fin rot that later turned out to be over zelous tiger barbs lol. (Had my tank 3yrs it was a custom built 6ft) when i parted company with my tank it went with the original stock minus a few tetras and the entire school of tiger barbs, so this in itself tells me the quality of fish we buy now has severly dropped but being a noob as such i thought things would have improved with the years that have passed.

I wont give up and hope that Uboat304 also holds his chin up and maybies checks the stock at his lfs as i can almost guarentee if any of the stock they had still exists they will show signs and he can rest assured it wasnt of his making.

Hi Kev and Wilder

Many thanks for your help, and especially your last post. I have to admit, I was getting pretty daunted by the whole prospect - and was getting far too stressed about the whole thing myself. Whilst I care a lot for the welfare of the fish (of course, otherwise I wouldn't be on this site), there is only so much I can do. Yes, the pet shop probably doesn't keep them the best they can, but I've only had the tank a few months, and its pretty healthy otherwise (lost one danio to dropsy)...

Anyway, today I have done a water change, got a testing kit (stats seem fine although water is a bit too hard I think). I've also carried on adding the ws3 as the ill fish still has a few spots.

I can't see what else to do, and feel I've done the most I can! I don't want to take the fish out the tank again, and take them back to the LFS as that will only stress them more, and belive me, they're getting a better deal in my tank than over there...

Kev - I think you hit the nail on the head with the problem of the internet - with all the in depth / differing info it can make you very paranoid etc - so really appreciate you bringing it down to earth again!

Wilder - your English is fine! Appreciate your advice too.

Well, I hope the clown loach is ok in the end, but I have a feeling he won't be - the good news is is that all the other fish are healthy and mad.

Many thanks

 

[WILDER]

Did you get the air pump and airstone..

 

[kev350d]

I have to admit, I was getting pretty daunted by the whole prospect - and was getting far too stressed about the whole thing myself. Whilst I care a lot for the welfare of the fish (of course, otherwise I wouldn't be on this site), there is only so much I can do. Yes, the pet shop probably doesn't keep them the best they can, but I've only had the tank a few months, and its pretty healthy otherwise (lost one danio to dropsy)...

Your not stressed until you find yourself standing infront of all the display tanks in pets at home getting rather annoyed (kids frequent the site) at the guy trying to offer you more fish, as direct replacements for the the infected ones you bought with infected specimens from the same tanks yours originated from Then to find yourself at the door of the shop with a bag full of treatments, air pump, air lines and stones that have been quickly and hastily put together by the manager free of charge to coax you out the way of ear shot of potential customers "that didnt work" yes i took the bag of goodies" (who in their right mind wouldnt) as i already refused vouchers... But i also informed every potential customer of the issue's in their stock of fish (Guess what store is now treating their fish)..

Had i not have discovered this site i may have never understood the lifecycle of whitespot and would certainly never have enough front and correct info to hold my own when reeling facts of complaint to a jumped up store manager (he litterally did crap himself). Im far from an annoying member of the public or a geek who looks to cause friction but i simply could not stand to see them willingly sell infected fish to less informed people then have the front to blame their customers water (they test a sample when offering a refund on your corpses) for the cause of infection. When their tanks have somewhat healthy looking fish feeding off the rotten bodies of dead and dying tankmates.

When buying look closely for any signs of abnormal activity (check the fish you want, when you know you want it - walk away, then return in a couple days check it again if all is ok make your purchase then try and quarentine it, this way should any nasties raise their head they can be treat in a controlled atmosphere.

Look through the free ads for a small tank and keep one of those small filters i mentioned going in your main, so it can be taken out along with some water and placed right in your quarentine tank, within a few minutes you have a cycled temporary home where you can treat and monitor new arrivals.

An old saying weve all heard is "Prevention is better than cure" my quarentine tank stands me £25 (thats a juwel rekord 60 complete with stock heater,filter, pump and new foam filter) i also got two fish i was unaware of with the deal lol.. So keep your eye's peeled although you dont require something as big, so a tenner will more than likely see you right if you search the free ads, second hand shops..

I have currently two more clowns that i purchased for 75p ea. i took them with whitespot (cant find a stock that doesnt reveal some outbreak in the 1st week of them appearing in the lfs tanks) both have been treat in the empty tank and show 110% improvement in both the visual and physical department but wont be released until i know for sure they are clean and only then will they be acclimatised very slowly using the drip method so i know ive taken the upmost care to ensure they join my main tank with the least stress possible..

Your Loach may yet recover (i hope it does) as they are quite hardy (i have been convinced mine were dying when they fell asleep on their sides lol) but now they look very fit bar one who ive stated has lost weight but this may be down to its ordeal it suffered... only time will tell.



Kev

 

[Uboat304]

Thanks for all your help and advice.

All signs of whitespot (ie. the white spots) has now gone. However the clown loach has now started lying on its side, really gasping quickly - in the corner, out of usual cover. He's not eating either.

Im starting to think the best thing is to euthanize him?

He does move though every so often, when feeding the rest of the fish today, he started swimming up to the surface, but then seemed to just run out of energy and float down - even getting stuck on a leaf...

Whats best to do? I have some clove oil?

 

[WILDER]

Clown loaches do lay on the side but he's in a bad way, he dying sorry bless him its took its toll on him, parasites can cause bacterial infections on top.

Written by sh a mod on here.



This is what I choose to do with my fish and my comments are only placed here as opinion. This is a heated topic. I choose based on my knowledge from my training:

Oil of cloves is a topical anethestic and was used in the past to treat toothaches. Lidocaine (like at the dentist's office is a topical anesthetic as well). When we operate on people we really want to achieve 2 things, analgesia and anesthesia, that is, relief of pain and unconsciousness. IMO, when a fish is immersed in oil of cloves, it is essentially 'topically anesthetized', paralyzed, but, I am NOT convinced that the fish is unconscious.....none of us will really know for sure. We don't know if the oil of cloves causes stinging to the mucus membranes, eyes, etc on initial contact nor if the fish is motionless, painless but aware.

Extreme cold is an anesthetic. When applied to skin, you can actually cut the skin and feel no pain. Cold also can cause rapid unconsciousness. In fact, hypothermia is reported to cause a state of euphoria and clouding of consciousness. Fish, at least most of the types that we keep (tropical), are extremely small and rapid immersion in extreme cold water, in my opinion, causes rapid pain relief and rapid unconsciousness. I have never seen any of my fish shows signs of what I consider suffering. They stop moving immediately and appear lifeless. Some have stated that since fish are ectothermic, this doesn't apply....perhaps in cold water fish I would agree.

I choose to euthanize my fish this way, rather than oil of cloves. One must either make an educated decision for themselves, or, choose what is currently accepted by the masses as what is humane.

Added: although I would never use blunt force to euthanize my fish, nor advocate it, one fact is for sure: death is instantaneous

SH

 

[Uboat304]

Clown loaches do lay on the side but he's in a bad way, he dying sorry bless him its took its toll on him, parasites can cause bacterial infections on top.

Ok, so best to euthanize.... thanks

 

[WILDER]

Heavy breathing and no energy not good.
You will know when to do the awful deed, you can tell. sorry.

 

[Uboat304]

Heavy breathing and no energy not good.
You will know when to do the awful deed, you can tell. sorry.

Thanks for your help, I just did it - freezing cold water with ice cubes. He fought it for a second (amazingly) but definately the right thing to do, he hardly had the energy to evade the net.

Not nice, but the right thing in this instance - the res of the fish are healthy so thats good.

Probably one more dose of the white spot medicine and then a water change by the weekend and hopefully life will return to normal in the aquarium!