Fishless Cycling ..with A Fish?

[Raticataticus]

Hi everyone. I am wanting advice as to whether this can work or not. I am in Australia and having trouble locating ammonia. I already have a Betta fish that was an unexpected birthday present and I am trying to get his tank cycled. At the moment he is living in a really small tank with no filter while I am cycling his big tank.
 
I am wondering if it is possible for me to use the "vacuumings" of his current home as an ammonia source to cycle the big tank. I am doing 25% water changes on his current tank and tipping it into the big tank. Can/will this work?
 
Sorry if I sound like an idiot, I am very new to fish keeping.

Also can anyone help me out with my PH reading? 
 

 
I am thinking somewhere between 6.8 and 7 but the colour thing is a little tricky.

 

[the_lock_man]

Hiya, it's not a stupid question at all.
 
I don't think it's going to work very well. At the moment, you are putting the bioload of about a quarter of a betta into the new tank, and so it will only ever cycle for that bioload. As soon as you put the betta in to the tank, you will be in a new cycle, whilst the bacteria colonies quadruple in size.
 
You could try taking out 80-90% of the small tank's water, but obviously, you will be having to make room in the big tank, for the small tank's water, so you are doing two water changes for the price of one - loads of work, over a very long period, for an incomplete outcome.
 
I really think, in your situation, that you would be better off putting the betta in the big tank - if you do so, he will still be producing the same finite amount of ammonia, but it will be spread across a larger volume of water, so the concentration, in parts per million, will be less - meaning your water changes will be less onerous.
 
What would help is if you could beg your LFS (or any fishkeeping friends) to let you have a little of their filter media, as a swap for some of your new media, to put in the new tank's filter. Obviously, the more the better, but even a small amount will greatly help.

 

[Raticataticus]

I really think, in your situation, that you would be better off putting the betta in the big tank - if you do so, he will still be producing the same finite amount of ammonia, but it will be spread across a larger volume of water, so the concentration, in parts per million, will be less - meaning your water changes will be less onerous.
 
What would help is if you could beg your LFS (or any fishkeeping friends) to let you have a little of their filter media, as a swap for some of your new media, to put in the new tank's filter. Obviously, the more the better, but even a small amount will greatly help.

 
Thanks for your help . I don't like my LFS, they are an unfriendly bunch of so and so's with poor puppy-selling practices and bad customer service so I doubt I'll get any free media out of them. I will ask my friend who keeps fish if I can have some of hers.
 
If I do just end up putting him in the big tank, how often should I test and water change?

 

[the_lock_man]

Give your friend an equal amount of your media as a swap, you can tell her from me that she can let you have up to a third of her media, and so long as it is replaced, the bacteria will re-colonise the new stuff within a few hours, and she won't notice a difference.
 
Your pH looks to be around 7.0 (but it's so difficult to tell via a photo). At that pH, you can let your ammonia reading get to 0.5ppm before you need to change water. The reason for this is that your test kit reads "Total Ammonia", which is made up of some highly toxic ammonia, and some relatively harmless ammonium. The higher the pH, the more of it is ammonia.
 
If you had a higher pH, I would suggest only letting Total Ammonia reading get to 0.25ppm, if you had a lower pH, I would suggest letting the Total Ammonia reading get up to 0.75 or even 1.0ppm.
 
You need to test your water every day. WIth a relatively low bioload, you will hopefully find that it takes a few days for the Total Ammonia reading to reach 0.5ppm, and when it does, carry out a 50% change.
 
What's my logic for saying this, when other people say that you must not let ammonia readings get over 0.25ppm? Well, if you keep the Total Ammonia levels right down, it will take longer for the filter to cycle. By keeping a careful balance, you can feed the bacteria a reasonale amount (they enjoy eating ammonium and ammonia equally), whilst still keeping your fish safe.
 
You will also need to test for nitrite. As soon as you see a nitrite reading (and you may well already have a small amount) you need to add salt to the tank - not aquarium salt, but good old Sodium Chloride table salt. You need to add 25mg per litre of water in your tank. Try to estimate the actual volume of water in there, by judging how much of the tank's nominal capacity is taken up by substrate and decorations.
 
Why? Well, chlorine in sufficient quantities will stop the nitrite being poisonous, because it will stop it entering the fish's bloodstream.
 
Remember, though, that when you do a 50% water change, you will also be removing 50% of the salt, so you would need to add half the amount of salt you added originally.
 
Eventually, you will see your ammonia and nitrite readings getting lower and lower each day. When you have gone for a whole week seeing 0ppm for Total Ammonia and nitrite, then you can consider yourself cycled for the current bioload. Do a large water change, to try to remove as much salt as possible.
 
You can then add more fish, remembering to increase the bioload by no more than 30% each time. This should allow the bacteria colonies to increase their size quickly, and you should not see any further ammonia and nitrite readings when you test, which you should do daily for a week after adding fish. If you do see increased levels of of either Total Ammonia or nitrite, then follow the above procedure.

 

[hobby5]

If I do just end up putting him in the big tank, how often should I test and water change?

Imho this would be the best thing to do. Then follow the advice given by the_lock_man

 

[Raticataticus]

Give your friend an equal amount of your media as a swap.

Thanks again for your help! Tell me, how do you swap media if your filter is one of those sponge type ones.
 

 

[fluttermoth]

You buy a sponge, cut about a quarter of your friend's media off and replace it with a piece from the new sponge.

 

[Raticataticus]

You buy a sponge, cut about a quarter of your friend's media off and replace it with a piece from the new sponge.

Thanks!

You will also need to test for nitrite. As soon as you see a nitrite reading (and you may well already have a small amount) you need to add salt to the tank - not aquarium salt, but good old Sodium Chloride table salt. You need to add 25mg per litre of water in your tank. Try to estimate the actual volume of water in there, by judging how much of the tank's nominal capacity is taken up by substrate and decorations.
 

 
By the looks of this I already have some Nitrite. 
 

 
I estimate there to be approximately 25L of actual water in the tank so I will chuck in 625mg of salt? Is that right?

 

[hobby5]

I estimate there to be approximately 25L of actual water in the tank so I will chuck in 625mg of salt? Is that right?

Your calculation is correct. How is one supposed to measure that? My scale is not that exact...
 
Is the fish already in?

 

[Raticataticus]

Fish not in yet. Am waiting for water to clear since adding gravel earlier today it's a bit cloudy. Almost fully clear now but might wait til the morning to add him. Am working on tying plants to rocks right now that I will put in soon.
 
I think I will measure salt by adding tiny little bit by bit to the kitchen scale until it ticks over to 1g and then remove just under 1/2 of what I have on the scale. Should be okay I think.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I am opposed to fish in cycling/ Howerver, if you re going to add chloride to help with nitrite you need to know three things.
 
First, neither changing water nor adding salt (chloeide) will do anything to help with nitrite already inside a fish. It takes 24-72 hours for it to clear assuming no more is getting in.
 
Second, one needs to add the proper amount of chloride (salt) based on the level of nitrite. You are shooting for 10 times the concentration of chloride as there is nitrite. So as nitrite rises you will need to adjust accordingly. Bear in mind that sodium chloride (salt) is about 2/3 chloride, so figure this into your calculations (it takes 1.5 mg of salt to get 1 mg of chloride). Your test kit reads in ppm but you will have to deal with salt in mg/l. fortunately 1 ppm is about equal to 1 mg/l. You will also need to convert the result from mg to grams so you can weigh it easily. What I usually tell people is if they can not work out the proper amount of salt, they should probably not be cycling with fish. It is important not to be adding too much salt for a number of reasons.
 
Third, the only way to get the sodium out of the water when the nitrite is gone is via water changes. One normally does not want sodium in their water longer term.
 
One last thing. If you cannot find ammonia:
 

 
Using shrimp or fish food: One of the more popular fishless cycling methods is to buy a few dead shrimp at the grocery store, cut them up into chunks and add them to the aquarium. The shrimp decay, which produces ammonia to feed the nitrifying bacteria. There are a few drawbacks with this method, one being that the hobbyist really has no way to know how much ammonia is being produced by the decaying shrimp, and the aquarium does not look very good with dead shrimp laying on the bottom. Also, the organic material of the shrimp can cause bacteria blooms which turn the aquarium water cloudy. This method works but it takes time and patience and you will probably see a spike in ammonia and nitrite if you add a medium to heavy load of fish after the initial cycling. Note that some people use flake fish food instead of shrimp but this is not recommended because flake food does not have much organic material compared to shrimp and so does not add a lot of ammonia to the water, but you can use cut fish instead of shrimp.

from http/www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/how-to-start

 

[Raticataticus]

I am opposed to fish in cycling/ Howerver, if you re going to add chloride to help with nitrite you need to know three things.
 

If you were in my situation what would you do? Put the fish in and go from there or try to do it fish less? He is still not in the big tank yet.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I never endorse fish in cycling. Most people have no idea how to do I properly. Lots of massive water changes are not the way, imo.
 
If one knows their ultimate level of stocking in a tank, the degree of cycling needed can be changed to match this. If one plans to stock lightly, you can reduce the ammonia levels being used. If you need less bacteria, it takes less time to get it established.

 

[Gruntle]

1. Where in Australia are you? If you're close to Brisbane I might be able to help with filter media.
 
2. Search ebay for "Aquariam ammonia" there's a pure aquarium ammonia, 30ml for (IIRC) $15 and free postage, arrives in about 4 days. Based in Sydney. I used about 15ml to completely cycle my 200l tank.