Fishless Cycling Experiment #1

[rdd1952]

As some may know, I have become obsessed with fishless cycling and have decided to run some experiments to answer a lot of qeustions I have. I want to know what methods work best, if any of the "bacteria in a bottle" products work, how much difference does water temp matter (90F compared to 85F for instance), will a sock of gravel from an established tank speed the process considerably, would extra filtration speed things (would a 300gph filter cause a 30 gallon tank to cycle faster than say a 150gpph filter), and on and on. I have bought a new 10 gallon tank and it will be used for nothing but one fishless cycle after another. I hope to add a second 10 gallon so that I can answer my questions faster.

Anyway, I have set everything up for the first run which will be a straight cycle from scratch using what I call the "add and wait" method. No bacteria starters, no media from my other tanks, just a new filter, ammonia and water. This will be the cycle that other (bacteria in a bottle, etc) tests will be judged against. Water was added yesterday and temp hopefully will be up to near 90 by the time I get home today although I think the heater I bought may be bad as I put it in last night with the tap water at about 72F to 74F and this morning (10 hours later) it was only up to about 84F. I have another heater and may have to run them both this first try to get the temp where I want it.

Parameters:

10 gallon tank
Whisper 10 filter
no substrate (only to make clean up for next run easier but will test with gravel later to see if that matters)

It appears that it will take approximately 4ml of ammonia per 5 gallon (16ml total) to give me about 5 ppm to start. If the temp is right tonight, I will add the ammonia and post stats daily.

 

[bogwood]

As some may know, I have become obsessed with fishless cycling

...and if you weren't, a lot of people on this forum - including me - would be up the proverbial creek!... I'll be looking out for your results...

 

[fishing4exotics]

Looking forward to your results rdd1952. Sounds like an interesting experiment. Reminds me of the time the senior biologist at Marineland, the filter company, was the guest speaker at our fish club. He had conducted cycling experiments in his lab. Found out the most effective and quickest way to cycle a tank was to take filter media and some water from an established tank and use it to cycle a new tank. Also, an interesting fact that most of the "cycle in the bottle" products have the wrong types of bacteria to start a cycle. The only "cycling" product that works in Biospera (sp?).

Good luck with your project and please keep us updated

 

[Bloo]

As some may know, I have become obsessed with fishless cycling

Wouldn't have noticed

I know for quite some time you've mentioned running some experiments, so would be interesting to see your results.

Though one question - would the tapwater parameters not influence any outcome ? Say for instance 2 people run the same test at the same time, but one starts with nitrate readings of 50ppm and the other with 0ppm. How would the outcome differ ?

 

[mikev]

Say for instance 2 people run the same test at the same time, but one starts with nitrate readings of 50ppm and the other with 0ppm. How would the outcome differ ?

Can you get 50ppm nitrates in tap water?
(High nitrate readings seem to slow down the nitrIte part of the cycle...but it would be difficult to measure by how much exactly...)

The question I'm most interested in is salt. I did fishless cycle twice (and love it, of course)... both time when the process seemed to be hung with 0 ammonia and high nitrites, adding a few grains of salt "jumpstarted" the 2nd part of the cycle. I have no idea if this was accidental, or the bacteria actually can use trace amounts of salt.

 

[Bloo]

Say for instance 2 people run the same test at the same time, but one starts with nitrate readings of 50ppm and the other with 0ppm. How would the outcome differ ?

Can you get 50ppm nitrates in tap water?

in this part of the UK, you bet your bottom dollar you can ! Horrid I know, but true.

 

[Tolak]

This is excellent. Seeing as there are so many different things to change, it could go on for quite a while. I'm pretty sure higher temps will increase the growth rate of bacteria, decreasing cycle time. Just a quick question, what brand of dechlorinator are you using? When doing a couple of fishless cycles long ago, I got a dechlor that treats only chlorine & chloramine. I didn't want to use Prime, as this changes ammonia to ammonium, and has some sort of chemicals to detoxify nitrites.

 

[rdd1952]

Though one question - would the tapwater parameters not influence any outcome ? Say for instance 2 people run the same test at the same time, but one starts with nitrate readings of 50ppm and the other with 0ppm. How would the outcome differ ?

I'm sure tap water parameters could have an influence. Hard water vs soft water for instance. I don't know that the presence of nitrates would matter and unfortunately, I probably won't be able to test that unless I can figure out a way to get clean water with nitrates present.

The question I'm most interested in is salt.

I hadn't thought of that since I've never used salt in any of my tanks but I will put it on the list to try.

Just a quick question, what brand of dechlorinator are you using? When doing a couple of fishless cycles long ago, I got a dechlor that treats only chlorine & chloramine. I didn't want to use Prime, as this changes ammonia to ammonium, and has some sort of chemicals to detoxify nitrites.

I use Stress Coat. It says it removes chlorine and neutralizes chloramine. It has no effect on ammonia. I have to believe that the products that say they remove ammonia have to severely slow the process. I do intend to try Prime, Ammo-loc, Cycle, and all those products including Bio Spira (which I am most anxious to try). I want to prove or disprove the usefulness of the "bacteria in a bottle" products. I can see that this is going to take a while as there are so many things to try.


I guess I have hit a setback as the heater I bought definitely is bad or something. After 24 hours, it had only managed to get the temp to about 84F and that's with the heater turned as high as it will go. I added a 25W that I had but after 12 hours, it was only at 88F. That would probably be fine but I'm afraid they are running full time to do get the temp there and will malfunction half way through. So I guess I'm returning the new heater I bought last week for another one. I will probably get a 150w or 200w this time just to be safe.

 

[BFG]

Just a thought, but do you think the alkalinity caused by the addition of the ammonium hydroxide has an effect on the rate of bacteria build up? Could it be worth trying a test with a buffering medium to see what happens?

 

[prankster705]

So how long do you think this experiment of yours will take??
And it probably cicles faster at lower temps because there is more oxygen in the water, try how does temp influence the speed of cycling...

 

[rdd1952]

BFG, the pH during a fishless cycle takes numerous swings so I never bother to test it. When you add ammonia, it goes up and of course comes down as the ammonia spike ends. I'm sure it goes back up everytime you add more ammonia. I may try adding buffering agents later to try to prevent the swings but I don't that they will actually affect the cycling time.

prankster, actually, a tank will cycle faster at higher temps as long as you add an airstone to replenish the oxygen depleated by the high temps. Bacteria grows faster at higher temperatures. I probably will try a cycle at the normal 77-78 to see how long it tanks.

As for how long it will take me, I have no clue. There are so many things I want to try and figure that each will take from 2 weeks to a month so it could go on for quite a while. Just for starters, I can think of all these seperate tests:

Basic cycle that I'm starting as soon as I get a good heater.
A full cycle with each of the following: Prime, Cycle, Stress Zyme, Bio Spira and any other "bacteria starters" I can find
A test with a sock of gravel from an established tank as everyone suggests to jump start a cycle.
A cycle at 77F, at 85F and at 90F.
One using the "Add and Wait" method (this first one will be it) and one with the "Add Daily" method

That in itself is at least 11 cycles (I'm sure there are more bacteria products out there than just the 4 I mentioned) so it will be an ongoing thing which will probably take most of the year unless I get a second tank.

 

[MAM]

Well, I know you're keeping it simple and just using the less expensive option of a 10 gallon tank, but I've always wondered about tank size and cycling. We all know that smaller tanks are more difficult to keep stable, but do they cycle more quickly than a bigger tank say? Or does that have no effect since you increase the amount of additives based on gallons. Just throwing ideas out there.

Would also be interesting to see if a tank with substrate cycles any faster than one without. Another thing to try, is the type of filter, power and HOBs vs sponge or some other internal (whole other expense there though).

 

[rdd1952]

MAM, you brought up a few that I want to do and just didn't remember when replying to prankster. I am curious about filter effect, HOB cartridge style, HOB bio wheel and canister. As you said, that will be added expense but I don't mind buying some extra equipment if I think I will be able to use it later on (I really like canister filters over the HOB that I have on my 29 gallon and could always switch that filter out after I finish testing it). I also want to test the size of a filter to see if that matters. Will a 10 gallon tank with a filter rated for 30 gallons cycle faster than with one rated for 10 gallon (theory being higher flow rate means more food to the bacteria and faster multiplication)?

I would like to try different size tanks also. It does seem that my 2.5 gallon betta tanks have been right in the same time frame as my 75 gallon was though although I didn't use as much ammonia on the small tanks since I was only cycling it for one betta (I even wonder if a betta tank needs much cycling at all but that's a whole different issue).

 

[rdd1952]

I got my heater swapped yesterday. Changed to a 100w just to make sure I had enough wattage. Unfortunately, I ran the temp up too high (about 93) overnight so I turned it down this morning hoping to be at about 90 later today and should add the ammonia tonight to finally get started.

 

[Wanda hornsey]

...waiting to see how it goes...... bringing my tank in to the house this weekend to start setting it up ready to start the cycle next weekend....very interested to see which works out the best in terms of time and flapping around if you get my meaning