Fishless Cycle

[walt8880]

I am still waiting here in Thailand for ammonia to arrive and not sure if/when that will happen.

A couple days ago I started evaluating my backup plan if it does not come and came up with a modified approach to the shrimp in the tank that I am trying while waiting for the ammonia.

Rather than put the shrimp into the tank, I cut up three shrimp and put them into a about a 0.5 liter plastic freezer container, filled with water, covered, and waited overnight.. Tested the shrimp water for ammonia and, sure enough, it was 5+ppm. So I dumped the water, but not the shrimp, into the tank. I have repeated this process every 12 hours with same shrimp but more water for two days and now the water in the tank tests about 5ppm ammonia.

I did this so I would have some measure of control over the ammonia addition to the water. If the ammonia solution gets here, I will change to using that.

One significant downside to this approach. When you add the shrimp water to the tank, as you might expect it does not smell very good in the room for a while. Expose the shrimp juice to air for as little time as possible.

The other thing I did yesterday that may help is get the nonwoven filter pad from the top of the wet/dry filter in a friends aquarium. He is not very diligent in changing this pad, so the one I got was pretty dirty, and I hope contains some beneficial bacteria. I cut off about half of it and put on top of the pad in my filter.

We will see what happens.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Sounds like you got some mature filter media there, that should speed up the cycling process for sure!

Just be careful not to bring the ammonia level up over 8+ ppm. At this level, we will start to colonize the wrong type of bacteria, ones we don't want.

However, it sounds like you got it under control for now!

-FHM

 

[waterdrop]

Sounds good to me! Can't hurt! In the early stages, getting some ammonia in there and being reasonably sure its not at a concentration as high as 8ppm is all that's needed. The shrimp juice will have other stuff besides ammonia, as you've clearly been able to smell, but it will eventually go away. Hopefully you -will- be able to find pure household ammonia as that of course gives you the most control. But congratulations on some very clever thinking there with the shimp -- we may have to recommend that in similar situations in the future! (You get the award for the night! )

~~waterdrop~~

 

[walt8880]

Sounds good to me! Can't hurt! In the early stages, getting some ammonia in there and being reasonably sure its not at a concentration as high as 8ppm is all that's needed. The shrimp juice will have other stuff besides ammonia, as you've clearly been able to smell, but it will eventually go away. Hopefully you -will- be able to find pure household ammonia as that of course gives you the most control. But congratulations on some very clever thinking there with the shimp -- we may have to recommend that in similar situations in the future! (You get the award for the night! )

~~waterdrop~~

Thanks guys for the reminder about the 8ppm upper limit. I missed that. I will with hold any further additions until I see ammonia level start to drop.

I assume the qualification for the award above are similar to those for the Nobel Peace Prize, i.e. "Good Intentions". However, if there is any cash prize, I will not be donating it to charity.

 

[waterdrop]

I'm sure the cash I send will still be in the envelope after it goes through the Thai post office. (actually, maybe it will, its not Venezuela after all... uhoh, now I'm probably in trouble)

 

[walt8880]

At the risk of restating the obvious, let me see if I understand where I am.

By adding the shrimp juice to get the ammonia level up, I have created the "ammonia spike". Is this correct??

Now I should start looking for nitrites to appear. Correct?

If correct, any educated guess as to how long it will take to start to see nitrites considering the fact that I have some "mature" (read nasty) filter media from a friends tank?

thanks

 

[fatheadminnow]

You are in the first stage of the cycle, and the second will be when ammonia starts to go to zero faster and faster after it has been added up to 5 ppm. When ammonia starts to drop, nitrite will begin to appear.

What kind of test kit are you using?

-FHM

 

[walt8880]

You are in the first stage of the cycle, and the second will be when ammonia starts to go to zero faster and faster after it has been added up to 5 ppm. When ammonia starts to drop, nitrite will begin to appear.

What kind of test kit are you using?

-FHM

Using Tetra test liquid test kit. Only thing here.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Okay, as long as it is a liquid test kit and not a strip test kit, you should be just fine.

-FHM

 

[waterdrop]

At the risk of restating the obvious, let me see if I understand where I am.

By adding the shrimp juice to get the ammonia level up, I have created the "ammonia spike". Is this correct??

Now I should start looking for nitrites to appear. Correct?

If correct, any educated guess as to how long it will take to start to see nitrites considering the fact that I have some "mature" (read nasty) filter media from a friends tank?

thanks

OK, coupla' things here: There is no term "ammonia spike" because ammonia never goes up to the highest level the liquid test kit for ammonia can measure and stays there. Instead, the highest the ammonia reading ever should be is the 5ppm that we add each time our ammonia eating bacteria have dropped it to zero ppm some time in the previous 24 hours.

The habit you need to establish will be to have 2 times of day, 12 hours apart, when you will test ammonia, nitrite(NO2), pH and (sometimes) nitrate(NO3.) *One* of those times, the "24-hour" one, will be when you always add your ammonia, *if* it went to zero sometime in the previous 24 hours. (this all assumes you -have- ammonia and not shrimp juice ) So let's say you think you will usually be available and home at 8am and 8pm. You decide 8am will be your "regular add-hour" and indeed, if you find in your 8am tests that ammonia reads zero ppm, then you squirt in enough aqueous ammonia to reach 5ppm concentration. Another time lets say that you measure zero ppm ammonia at 8pm. Do you go ahead and add ammonia? No, its better to wait 12 more hours, with the ammonia measuring zero, before dosing the ammonia at 8am. The reason for this is two-fold. First, this helps to not eventually create so much nitrite and nitrate in the tank and secondly, it mahy be that the "pulse" effect (high, low, high, low) of the ammonia creates a stronger growth response (that's not been shown but is being speculated about.)

OK, after you put in this first ammonia is your next thing to expect nitrite(NO2)? No, I'd say its better to be pessimistic and realize that you are in the first of 3 phases of fishless cycling. In the first phase the significant things are 1) how long, 3 days, 3 weeks?, does it take for that very first 5ppm of ammonia to drop to zero ppm? It can take a while. Next though, it should begin dropping in fewer days and you recharge the 5ppm more often. Meanwhile, toward the end of this first phase you are finally hoping to see the nitrites(NO2) start to rise above a trace.

The second phase is when (seemingly suddenly) the nitrite(NO2) spikes to as high as the test kit can measure it and every time you test it it seems stuck up there. This is called the "nitrite spike" phase and can also be a pretty significant amount of time, just like the first phase.

Finally, the third phase is after this spike finally subsides and both ammonia and nitrite(NO2) begin dropping to zero ppm by the time 24 hours has passed since you dosed the tank with ammonia. The significant problem in this phase is what I call the "sticking problem," where a last little bit of either nitrite(usually) or ammonia(sometimes) will still not be cleared 12 hours after you dose ammonia.

Indeed, dropping both ammonia and nitrite(NO2) from 5ppm tank dose level to zero ppm in 12 hours or less is the big test to be able to start your "qualifying week," which just means you watch it repeat the feat of "dropping to double zeros in 12 hours" for a week, to ensure that the bacterial colonies are good and robust. Then you perform the big water change and introduce the first fish stocking!

Every tank is different in how long the fishless cycle takes (3 weeks to a little over 2 months is range of most cases we see but not all) and the length of each phase can be radically different for different people. All this variability is very frustrating for most beginners and that's really one of the reasons we have our threads and like to "chat" people through the long weeks and months of this process. The main reasons for the slowness are that the two species of autotrophic bacteria are just naturally very slow growing and the number of cells that start the cultures can be very low or somewhat higher and that makes a big time difference.

You are correct that MM (mature media) can greatly speed up a fishless cycle, but there's unpredictability to that too and yours may have struggled because of the non-regular ammonia environment you are providing (-or-, they might even do better in it, who knows!)

Sorry for all the verbiage but hopefully there'll be a few things in there you can turn back to and read again as things happen.

~~waterfall~~

 

[walt8880]

Waterfall/drop

that is a great explanation. thanks for taking the time to give so much clear detail.

I am saving it for continuous perusal as I go trough the process.

 

[walt8880]

I have established 7am/7pm as my daily testing times and will add ammonia in the mornings if needed.

I just completed my first full set of tests and as near as I could interpolate the colors got the following results

Ammonia - 2.0
Nitrite - 0.8
Nitrate - 5.0
ph - 8.0

I conclude from this that the use of the mature media may have jump started the process a little.

Will check again tonight and in the morning. If ammonia approaching zero, more shrimp juice ready and waiting.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Looking good!

-FHM

 

[walt8880]

Tonights resuts -

Ammonia - ~1.0
Nitrite - ~1.6
Nitrate - ~ 8.0

Hopefully by tomorrow ammonia will be near 0 and I will add some more.

I found ammonia solution at a different chemical supply today so no more shrimp juice. I got the minimum quantity of 1/2 liter, but it was 30% concentration, so I should have enough ammonia to cycle the ocean. The manager of the store warned me not to put my nose/face over the open container because of the strength of the vapors.

After coming home, I cut it 2:1 with water to get to ~10% concentration so I have a little more leeway in the addition amounts. 10% also makes it easier to calcuate the add quantity.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Tonights resuts -

Ammonia - ~1.0
Nitrite - ~1.6
Nitrate - ~ 8.0

Hopefully by tomorrow ammonia will be near 0 and I will add some more.

I found ammonia solution at a different chemical supply today so no more shrimp juice. I got the minimum quantity of 1/2 liter, but it was 30% concentration, so I should have enough ammonia to cycle the ocean. The manager of the store warned me not to put my nose/face over the open container because of the strength of the vapors.

After coming home, I cut it 2:1 with water to get to ~10% concentration so I have a little more leeway in the addition amounts. 10% also makes it easier to calcuate the add quantity.

Glad you found some ammonia. You can use the Aquarium Calculator at the top right of this page to calculate how much ammonia to add to bring your tank up to a certain ppm.

-FHM