Fish Spinning And Corkscrewing

wodesorel

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I posted this on a loach specialty forum, but I am looking for help from anyone who may know what this is!

We screwed up with timing on getting a new heater for the tank - our last one broke and we haven't been able to afford a new one until this week. So the tank has been at room temperature (68 degrees) for about a month and a half. It was stupid, but we had no choice.

On Sunday (the 24th), I went to crawl into bed (tank is in the bedroom) and the Opaline Gourami that we've had for two years could barely swim and he died about five minutes after I found him in distress. I immediately cleaned the tank from top to bottom since six hours earlier the fish had been acting fine and I was worried about a possible ammonia spike or a toxin. (We don't have testing kits here.) I did an 80% water change and sand vac, along with rinsing the filter media and cleaning off the plastic plants.

Two kuhli loaches (the lone striped and one of the blacks) where having trouble swimming and breathing and kept drifting onto their sides. The three clown plecos had dropsy. The other 10 kuhlis all seemed fine.

Knowing that there's a good chance the deaths were from the low water temps causing a drop in their immune system, I wasn't sure what to do. I dug out a spare junior heater (7W) and threw it in the tank. Between that and using a space heater in the bedroom the tank climbed to 74 degrees, and had been holding steady from 6am Monday morning until this afternoon. I had the water tested on Monday and it was fine. (0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, 10ppm nitrate)

On Monday I lost the striped kuhli. Tuesday was the black kuhli. On Wednesday I lost another black kuhli. The clown plecos seem to have recovered from the dropsy, but it is really hard to tell since they hide so much. At the very least, by today all the fishes' color have improved.

Now the kuhlis are acting very odd - careening around the tank looking like their having seizures (extreme flicking of their bodies), rubbing themselves around the plastic plants and the driftwood, and even curling themselves into corkscrews as if to itch their own bodies. This just started on Thursday. I've got one loach in particular that is spinning in circles vertically. They also keep burying their heads into the sand and staying that way looking like ostriches. (I keep thinking they're dead because they are staying that way for hours!)

I see no signs of ich or velvet on any of the 9 remaining black kuhlis or the three clown plecos. (I also saw no signs of visible illness on the dead gourami or kuhlis - I checked before I buried them.) I'm nervous about using medications without knowing what would do the most good, if it would do any good. I DO NOT want to loose these fish, even if I was being stupid about the heater. (I've had a lot of sleepless nights this week, believe me.)

I got the new heater in today and am slowly upping the temperature to 82 degrees just in case it is ick. I've also added a Tablespoon of aquarium salt to the tank for the same reason. It's a 20 gallon tank with a fine grain sand bottom. Some of the kuhlis seem to be acting normal again for the first time in days. I know that the salt is a risk with the kuhlis but something is causing them extreme discomfort and I don't know how to deal with it other than just heat and salt.

Here are two photos I took to show what I'm talking about when I say they are corkscrewing. They are actually staying in these odd positions for a number of minutes.

Corkscrew.jpg

corkscrew2.jpg
 
Please, if anyone has any ideas or advice!!! I just found another dead kuhli, and now another one is having trouble breathing and staying upright. I've had these guys for six years, and I just don't know what to do! They've never been sick before!
 
Poor things.

Immediate water change and increase aeration.

How many gallons is the tank?

Buy your own test kits as not all lfs are to be trused.
Take a sample to your lfs for now and ask them to write the readings down for you.

Could any chemicals gotten into the tank.
Any road works going off down your street.

Do the fish show any of these symtoms.
Excess slime on the body and gills.
Looking pale, or greyish white with excess slime.
Do the fish swim in a jerky movement.
Do the fish barrel roll aswell as spinning.
Do the gills look pale with excess slime, or red and inflamed.
Do any fish look skinny.
What does it look like when your fish go to the toilet.

The more info the better as the symtoms are pointing towards bad water quality, toxins, parasites, internal parasites, bacterial, ph shock.
 
I did an 80% water change a week ago and a 20% water change last night. I dropped the water level by an inch to increase aeration from the filter when I raised the tank temp.

Tank is 20 US gallons. Fine grained sand for substrate, with driftwood and plastic plants. Nothing new has been added in the past 3 years.

I wish I could afford to buy testing kits right now, but I just can't this month. We've been having medical issues with a few of our cats which has been eating into the "extras" funds at the end of the past few months. I have used two different lfs to test the water though, just to be on the safe side.

Sunday (last week)lfs 1:
ammonia 0ppm
nitrite 0ppm
nitrate 10ppm
pH 8.2

Thursday (I think. It might have been Friday - this week is a blur) lfs 2:
ammonia 0ppm
nitrite 0ppm
nitrate 15ppm
pH 8.2

(pH has always been between 8.0 and 8.4 coming out of the tap.)

No chemicals around the tank - tank is in the bedroom and I don't use any perfume or hairspray or anything like that. Even the food they've been getting had been used for 2.5 months and has been used on our betta fish as well. Aside from this 20 gallon I have three more small cycled tanks for bettas, and they have had no health problems at all. So it can't be the tap water as I always clean all four tanks on the same day.

It's hard for me to say if there is excess slime since they are black kuhli loaches. I want to say yes since the dead ones I've found have a whitish film to them, but I can't say for sure how long those fish had been dead. (Possibly up to 12 hours.)The gills look fine and are not strongly colored, but they are frantically rubbing their gills (and body) against anything they can. Yes to the jerky movement and barrel rolling. No noticeable loss of color, but they do vary by time of year and amount of light in the tank. They are all normal weight. I haven't noticed any of them going to the bathroom, but with them always swimming along the bottom it's hard to tell.

The only problem I can see with the clown loaches is that one of them still has severe dropsy and is pale - swollen up about half again as big as he should be and is very pineconed. The other two are back to normal color and attitude.

I'm noticing now that the kuihlis are also developing a very distinctive hook at the base of their skull. Their "necks" are so bent that they look like candycanes swimming around! On the last dead one the head was bent at a downward angle, but the candycane necks that are swimming around now are bending to either the left or the right, depending on the fish.
 
Need to look at your stocking list.
How many fish and which type. As your tank looks overstocked.

What type of test kit are the lfs using.

It sounding like flukes with the white film, swimming in a jerky movement, heavy breathing.
Need to know water stats first that the readings you have are accurate. As these symtoms can also point towards other things.

Any red sores or red pin prick marks on the fish.
Do the clown loaches look thin.
Is the fish anus enlarged, or red and inflamed.
Have you ever wormed your fish internally.

Is it possible to load a pic onto the site of the deformed heads.
How are the kuihlis body weight.
 
Stocking for the 20 gallon:

Opaline Gourami -added Aug 2008, died Oct 21.
First fish to go, and was doing the spinning, corkscrewing, barrel roll type movements when found. Was originally bought as a dwarf gourami and it turned into a monster (size of a hand), so I know it was too large for the 20 gallon. (lfs would have killed it if I returned it, so I kept it.)

3 Clown Plecostomus - added Aug 2008
All three do still appear to have dropsy, caught it when I checked with a flashlight last night - only one is seriously swollen

1 striped kuhli loach - added September 2007, died Oct. 22

11 black kuhli loaches - 4 died (Oct. 23, Oct. 24, Oct 30, Oct 31)
Fish have been added a few per year since June 2006, and these are the first deaths (aside from a killer snail) that I have ever had with them!

I also had two eel khuli loaches, but they both passed on after about year of ownership back in March.

The lfs testing kits were a Jungle Labs strip test at one and a Mardel at another. I've used both of the stores before when I had test kits to double-check my readings in the past and have found the employees to be knowledgeable about using the tests. We're trying to figure out a way to buy a test kit (a good liquid one) soon, but money is extremely tight.

No sores or red marks that I can see.

The Clown plecos have always been at a good weight as judged by their undersides, and now they're swollen with dropsy.

The black kuhlis look good as well - thick and otherwise healthy.

The gourami looked perfectly normal as well before he suddenly started acting weird and died.

No problems with their anus. Nothing red or swollen.

The last time I wormed the fish was when we got the gourami back in aug 2008 - he had worms so I went ahead and used medicated worming food and he cleared up in a few days. It's hard to worm the kuhlis and the plecos as they won't touch the food, and I've always been leary of free-floating meds.

I never though to snap a photo of one of the dead kuhlis, and when the live ones are making that position they're careening all over the place and it's impossible to get anything but a blur. If one of them dies (and I'm praying that won't happen again) I'll make sure to get a photo here as soon as I can!
 
i don't like to ask you
have cats do you use flea
spray or flea powder on them
do you use plug in air fresheners
or have you just started using them
 
Sorry, should have though to mention that The Biffster!

Nope, no flea treatment on the cats. They're indoor only and have never had fleas. (The newest kittens got Revolution once back in July, but they aren't allowed in the bedroom since we actually need to sleep at night. :) )

We also do not use air freshers or candles or anything of that sort as both myself and my hubby (and two of the cats) are highly allergic.
 
i have seen a similar thing
but is was to do with flea powder
that's the only reason i asked any way
that eliminated another thing did
it start before or after the water change
 
Before the water change. The opaline gourami was barrel rolling and spinning like mad when I went to go to bed, so I stayed up for another two hours and did the emergency water change. Only two loaches actually looked bad at that time, and after the water change even more died over the next few days.

We managed to scrape together the money to go out and buy an API master test kit.

pH 7.8
ammonia 0ppm
nitrite 0ppm
nitrate between 0ppm and 5ppm

Hopefully this test is correct - is there a way to make sure it's reading the water parameters correctly? I tested one of the other betta tanks (2.5 gallon) and also the water straight out of the tap, and got the same results (minus the nitrate reading on the tap water).

Can fish get gill flukes or velvet or ick when there has been no new fish added for 7 months?

Do these parasites stay in a tank on a living host without overpowering them when the water conditions are good?

Could it be that the colder temperatures lowered these guys immune systems enough for something that was harmless to blossom into a full blown infection?
 
Pictures of a dead kuhli with the cricked neck. She died within the last 12 hours. In the last two photos you can see this pale pink stuff on the towel - that has come out of either the gills or mouth (can't tell) of every dead fish so far. I suddenly realized that I have no idea if that's a normal part of a fish death or a symptom.

The slightly yellow discoloration right before her dorsal fin is normal for her. She got caught in a lettuce clip three years ago and while she healed up fine, she's always had the scar. :(

DSC09487.jpg


DSC09490.jpg


DSC09492.jpg


DSC09498.jpg



Another one of the kuhlis all curled up. He's been like this for the last 6 hours. All the other loaches are taking turns sitting with him - I feel so bad! I tried to get a good shot of his gills to show they aren't looking that unusual either.

DSC09504.jpg


DSC09500.jpg
 
i just don't know what it
could be it sound like some
sort of contaminates as got
into the tank some how maybe
through the food you feed them
or some other way airborne
 
The betta in the 2.5 gallon which is next to the 20 gallon is now having health problems. :(

Clamped fins, cloudy eyes, itching against the gravel, and very lethargic. I can't completely tell, but I think he has white spots on both eyes as well. Whatever it was must have jumped tanks before I caught on there was a problem. After I noticed the fish in the 20 weren't acting right I immediately went into quarantine mode, so it had to have happened before that.

I did something stupid and desperate and ran out and bought some Parasite Clear. (Met and Praz) Here's hoping! I just couldn't wait around another night and wake up again to dead fish.
 
So the fish got worse when you did a water change. It sounds like there might be something in your water to me.
Just need to see if it is the water.
Have you done water changes on the other tank and the betta has been fine.


What do you feed the fish. Make sure the food is not out of date.


Do they look like specs on the eye, or spots.
Are the spots, or specs behind the lens of the eye.
As spots and specs on eyes can be whitespot to eye flukes.

Just going to look the med up you are using.

Write down the symtoms that match up here.
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_some_signs_of_sick_fish.html

The med sounds fine but don't know how good it is.
 
Sorry for all the questions. Some posts you can get to the problem nearer enough straight away.
Some posts take longer.
Few things throwing me. Haven't added anything to the tank in months which is ruling out parasites., the bent head.
 

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