Fish In/out Cycles

[techen]

Now, I've seen many people struggle with Fishless cycles. Being that some cycles may look complex and puts them off doing it in the first place and also the time it takes to complete one is longer than what some people expect.
 
But for the people that do go down the route of fishless cycles, Some go on for months with no signs of progress and others stop dead in the water midway through. 
 
I think it's safe to say that fish in cycles, If you look at it the way I do. Can be safer for fish than fishless cycles. Being you do your research for hardy fish that can take some punishment and that your willing to go out of your way for extra water changes. I think having fish in the tank to produce the right ammonia for a cycle to start could be less harmful in the long run than say a fishless cycle that fails or is delayed and for someone to just give up and add a fish saying "We did do/try a fishless cycle".
 
Of course most of the time when people put fish in after a failed fishless cycle it tends to be non hard/overstocked that causes fish deaths.
 
So overall, I already see the slow decline of sales in the product ammonia and it wont be long before the product is no longer available at least in the UK. Due to new health and safety rules booting it out of the market. You could always go down to rotting food to produce ammonia but I can't help that it's a tad "Old skool" and you could add too much or too little ammonia with no real way to judge how much you were adding.
 
I just thought I'd share this view and get others to slip in a input or two about how fishless cycles may be on decline soon.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I think that its a very valid point of view to take.  I disagree with you on the "safety" issue for the fish.  A properly done fish-in cycle can be quite safe and quite easily done by an experienced aquarist who knows the ins and outs of the nitrogen cycle, which fish are hardy, and how to properly stock the tank for a fish-in cycle.
 
 
The reason I am against them is that most beginner's don't know the difference between a hardy fish and a sensitive one, don't "understock" the tank as they should... Has success for a week while there's not an ammonia of real consequence early and then adds more fish immediately.  And does all this without the aid of a proper test kit.
 
 
So, while in theory, I agree that a fish-in cycle is just as valid a method as a fishless one.  I believe that while it can be frustrating to the aquarist when the fishless one seems to fail, no fish are harmed during that failure.  A failed fish-in cycle leaves a trail of corpses.  
 
 
I prefer this: Home and   ----->>>> LFS  
 
 
to this:  Home

   

     and ------->>>> LFS

 $$$

 

[techen]

A failed fishless cycle will lead to a fish in cycle anyway, Depending on the person.
 
But I believe the availability of ammonia is soon to die off, I expect quite a large change for the cycle system.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Agreed a failed fishless cycle can lead to a fish-in cycle.  
 
But, the attempted fishless cycle has served a purpose (several actually): 
1 - the addition of ammonia has provided a food source for some nitrifying bacteria and while the results may not be immediately recognized, they may serve a benefit in the future of the fishless cycle.
 
2 - the fishless cycle has forced the individual to research the nitrogen cycle more thoroughly and hopefully now they have a better understanding of how that works
 
3 - If they were willing to research how to do a fishless cycle in the first place, they are probably willing to research the proper way to do a fish-in cycle.  So, that they do it as close as possible to how an experienced aquarist would.
 
 
 
On a side note:  I know that ammonium hydroxide is becoming scarse in the UK, but what about Ammonium chloride?  That's the ammonia source that is suggested by certain 'experts' in the field, thinking primarily of Dr. Havonec.  Are their sources of that in the UK?

 

[the_lock_man]

I don't know of any - does it have any mainstream usage?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Feed supplement for cattle, flavoring agent for certain licorice candies, also used for samosas and jalebi - apparently.
http/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_chloride
 
 
I know Dr. Tim's Aquatics sells it in solution form, but I don't know how available it is in the UK.

 

[the_lock_man]

I'm gonna have to start importing Dr Tims.

 

[daizeUK]

Dr Tim's ammonium chloride was available in the UK until recently - I got one of the last bottles before their supplier went bust.  I expect that it will become available in the UK again but they don't seem to have a new supplier yet.  We can import it from Europe if we wanted to pay postage.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

A few observations:
 
1. The stalling of so many fishless cycles is due to poor advice due and to a misunderstanding by many of what is involved. It is mostly the result of improperly dosing ammonia. The next biggest cause is not understanding the test kits, what they measure and when they may not be accurate. I have cycled without fish now for over 12 years. I have done 75+ tanks this way. Not once did I ever have a cycle stall. usually I was surprised it went so fast.
 
2. Fish in cycling works just fine as well when it is done properly. The concept that one needs to do massive water changes if there are any levels of ammonia or nitrite is what derails this method. The keys are to choose the proper fish, use only a very few and then know that you must allow them to live in some low level of both ammonia and nitrite over the short term and that this should not cause them any permanent damage is key. However, knowing this may require reading the actual  research out there that examines these things. Those that claim any level of ammonia or nitrite exposure for any time are toxic/deadly to fish are mostly parroting what they have been told, not what the actual research has shown. Most folks do not delineate between exposure to NH3 vs NH4 especially since most of the test kits measure total ammonia.
 
3. I have been using ammonium chloride to cycle for several years now. This will never be off the market. It is a dry powder and you mix up your own solution. The only pre-mixed I have seen is what is sold by DrTim's. It is what I have been using, but I could make my own should the need ever arise.
 
4. If one defines the purpose of cycling as bringing a tank to the endpoint of being fully stocked and able to handle all the nitrogenous waste involved, then fishless cycling cuts the time in half or more. This is because at the end of a fishless cycle one can stock fully, there is no need to add fish gradually.
 
5. The greatest enemy of cycling, either fish in or fishless, is the lack of the primary ingredient needed to make it a success. And that is PATIENCE. Most of the time what one needs to be doing is nothing.

 

[Madjonny]

I'm sure you will always be able to find it on the Internet... Maybee not in stores, I wouldn't even know where to look in a shop for ammonia.

I had some come yesterday from amazon...

 

[Arcticfox1977]

I am probably one of the very few on here who is doing the fish in cycle. Tank has been running for 6 weeks and no fatalities. I began testing the water twice daily and when ammonia rose to 0.25, I did a 60% WC. At the beginning I was doing these WC every day. Now I can go 2 days with no ammonia showing. Still waiting for nitrite to rise. I understand that I need to do large WC's often and I have dedicated times to do this.

 

[Sophie]

I personally believe it's a bit cruel - maybe I'm just easily swayed by articles I've read on the subject. Even the suggestion itself of having hardy fish rather than wimpy ones to do a fish in cycle, infers that the fish is going through some sort of suffering right? Toughing it out? Maybe no permanent or long term damage, but pain of the moment? *shrug* I guess keeping fish in general is selfish to some degree as all are constantly exposed to stressors which have a major impact on their immune system and life span - some more than others of course.
 
Perhaps I'm going a bit dark. I don't know vast amounts on the subject to comment properly, just throwing some ideas out there from articles and books I've read that were interesting
 
I guess I shouldn't but I still feel guilty for my mishaps and mistakes made when I first started keeping fish. I'm just that kind of person

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Well, to be quite honest, the whole "life span" issue is an interesting one.
 
 
For example, captive lions live for up to three decades, while the average is about half that for wild specimens.  So, is it better to keep an animal in captivity, if it prolongs their life?  Or is it cruel because they don't have the same freedom and are just serving a "prison sentence".   I would suspect that fish experience a similar fate.  Most aquarium fish, when kept properly will outlive their wild companions... so, its a difficult question to answer and gets into a whole "bioethics" debate.

 

[Sophie]

Well, to be quite honest, the whole "life span" issue is an interesting one.
 
 
For example, captive lions live for up to three decades, while the average is about half that for wild specimens.  So, is it better to keep an animal in captivity, if it prolongs their life?  Or is it cruel because they don't have the same freedom and are just serving a "prison sentence".   I would suspect that fish experience a similar fate.  Most aquarium fish, when kept properly will outlive their wild companions... so, its a difficult question to answer and gets into a whole "bioethics" debate.

 
Yeah and that's a bit much for my preggo brain to handle right now - maybe I'm just a big bag of hormones
 
I guess we'll never know unless one day we can ask a fish how it's feeling and get its opinion on the topic! 

 

[Noahsfish]

honestly I think that ifma fish is kept in a large enough aquarium with it's basics needs like caves, plants, etc. It's basically an easy, somewhat stress free life. As they always get good food, they don't, or shouldn't have any predators to worry about...I don't see really any downsides besides space.