Fish In Cycle, With Tetra Safestart

[libbyloo]

Hello,
 
I started a brand new 125ltr juwel rio tank on the 18th of November, the first four days I let the tank settle, added half a bottle of tetra safestart, and a small amount of food in the tank for each day
 
On the 22nd I poured the rest of the tetra safestart and added 6 cherry barbs. The following day I done a 50% water change because ammonia was 0.50.
 
 Since then (nearly 12 days) i have test the water every day, both ammonia & nitrite have been 0.00. I have tested for nitrate every couple of days and its always between 10-20.
 
I have even taken my water into my lfs to get a second reading to make sure my api test kit isnt faulty, which it isnt.
 
could my tank be cycled? how many more days of the same readings to confirm its cycled?
 
Thanks
 
 

 

[three-fingers]

Do you have any live plants?
 
I wouldn't consider the tank properly cycled, there are probably hourly fluctuations in ammonia and nitrite that your not seeing. Even if not faulty, liquid aquarium test kits aren't exactly accurate anyway IMO, they are just a general guideline.
 
Being cycled isn't just about having no ammonia or nitrate readings - its about having an established and resilient colony of bacteria in your tank.  That way, if something goes wrong like the temperature or pH drops, your bacteria wont just die off leaving you with nothing to clean the water, and dead fish.
 
It's very unlikely your bacteria colony will be established in such a short time, so wait a couple of weeks before you add any more fish

.  If your losing patience and want to add something, try live plants, or try to get some mature media before you add new fish.

 

[libbyloo]

Do you have any live plants?
 
I wouldn't consider the tank properly cycled, there are probably hourly fluctuations in ammonia and nitrite that your not seeing. Even if not faulty, liquid aquarium test kits aren't exactly accurate anyway IMO, they are just a general guideline.
 
Being cycled isn't just about having no ammonia or nitrate readings - its about having an established and resilient colony of bacteria in your tank.  That way, if something goes wrong like the temperature or pH drops, your bacteria wont just die off leaving you with nothing to clean the water, and dead fish.
 
It's very unlikely your bacteria colony will be established in such a short time, so wait a couple of weeks before you add any more fish

.  If your losing patience and want to add something, try live plants, or try to get some mature media before you add new fish.

 
Hi there, 
 
sorry forgot to mention the plants. Yes I have a lot of them that have been in the tank from day 1

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I would say that your tank could be 'cycled' in terms of dealing with ammonia and nitrite.  Tetra Safestart is one of the very few bacteria in a bottle products that I would say have a chance of truly cycling the tank in this sort of situation efficiently, as they are co-holders of the patent on the appropriate bacteria for our tanks.
 
With that said, as three fingers points out, there is a difference between 'cycled' and 'mature' (at least, that's how I prefer to discuss them).  Cycled tanks can process ammonia and nitrite completely.  Mature tanks have a robust bacteria colony... which can withstand changes in temp, pH, parameters, etc.  They also have a more complete ecosystem of more than just the bacteria involved in the cycling process.
 
 
Anyway, long story short - it takes about 6 months for a tank to 'mature', but it is possible to cycle a tank in this short an amount of time, provided that you are adding bacteria.

 

[three-fingers]

Ah, there you go then!  Your tank wont be cycled then, as the plants use ammonia and nitrite as a nitrogen source.  Basically your plants are doing your biological filtration for you, planted tanks don't cycle in the same way as non-planted tanks.
 
This makes it a little bit harder to recommend what to do, as without seeing the tank to judge how many plants you have, what type of plants they are and how healthy they are, I cant say if the tanks good for fish yet!
 
I would still wait another couple of weeks for your plants to become more established before adding any more fish, just to be safe for the fishes sake, as adding sooner would be a gamble .
 
Its a very good thing you have the plants though, makes life soooo much easier for people starting new tanks, and lots of healthy growing plants are much better than an established filter IMO .

 

[eaglesaquarium]

You could add more fish and watch the stats - but as three finger suggests, I'd wait another week or two. 

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If my memory serves me you failed to follow the directions for Safe Start. Yo are not supposed to change any water for 24 hours before and 5 days after adding it. they do not want any dechlor added to the tank during that time. So you may or may not be cycled. Adding fish food produces very little ammonia as it contains minimal organic content. If you can not find ammonia a piece of raw shrimp of fish work way better.
 
But here is a post on another forum which was a reply from tetra on Saf Start to a list of questions the received from that forum in 2009:
 

 
Hi there,

Wow, lots of questions! All are pretty simple, and we get them a lot too. I'll suggest marketing address them on our website, next time they update it. Out of curiosity, what forum is it?

So...where to begin? First, ideally you should set up the tank, and let it run at least 24 hours, then, shortly before you head off to the store for your first fish, add TSS to the tank. Within two hours, you should
add the fish. Our normal recommendation is to add one small fish per ten gallons of water. However, you CAN fully stock the tank, you just need to keep a close eye on it, and be sure to not complicate  matters by overfeeding as well. We recommend this method for African cichlid tanks since it is best to fully stock such a tank from the beginning due to territorial issues. For a novice fish-keeper, we'd recommend the one small fish per ten gallons rule for the first two weeks. Within two weeks, TSS should have fully cycled the tank and they can start slowly adding more fish, one at a time.

In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the food the bacteria require to live.
 
If you already have fish, and are having an ammonia issue, it is best to get the ammonia levels down to below 4.0. 4.0 and higher is just as toxic to TSS as it is to fish. While 2.0 -3.5 PPM ammonia may harm some of the TSS bacteria, it should still have some effect. You may want to do a second dose several days after adding the first one, if you are not seeing the results you want. Keep in mind, these are bacteria, not a chemical, so results are slow to see. Give the product at least 5-7 days.

Best temperature for TSS is between 40 and 80 degrees. Freezing and extreme heat will destroy it. Refrigeration is okay, but not necessary. You can test the water any time, but really, you should probably wait at least 48 hours. We expect TSS to start slowly seeding the tank, and making a difference in about that time. You have to have some ammonia occur in the tank to provide the cycle needed, so it will usually create levels or reduce levels to around 1.0-1.5 ppm, and they should stay there for a week to 14 days, and then come down. Sorry, these levels would be for both ammonia and nitrite. These are considered stress, but not toxic, levels, and should not cause any long term damage to the fish.

We recommend waiting two weeks before a water change. Of course, if for some reason, the levels go up to a high level again, we would recommend a change at that point, and another dose. Usually, the hobbyist has done something wrong the first time, in such cases.
 
Nope, bacteria should not affect the pH.

Hmmm....be sure the levels are not already toxic, shake the container thoroughly, be sure to add the right dosage, do not use an ammonia detoxifying product, and be patient. It won't give you zero readings in an hour, like some folks think. By the way, carbon does not affect it but uv lights do...we get those questions too. And just an interesting point...the large aquariums, such as the Georgia Aquarium, and the Shedd Aquarium, as well as huge research labs in this country and other countries, also use TSS as well as the saltwater version Bio Spira.

If I have not addressed all of your questions, please let me know.

Regards,

Tetra Care

The above is from a site that TFF refuses to allow a link too. So TFF bears responsiblity for the above quote not being properly referenced to its source. If any member reading the above would like the link so they can read the full thread, please shoot me a PM and I will send you the URL.

 

[libbyloo]

If my memory serves me you failed to follow the directions for Safe Start. Yo are not supposed to change any water for 24 hours before and 5 days after adding it. they do not want any dechlor added to the tank during that time. So you may or may not be cycled. Adding fish food produces very little ammonia as it contains minimal organic content. If you can not find ammonia a piece of raw shrimp of fish work way better.
 
But here is a post on another forum which was a reply from tetra on Saf Start to a list of questions the received from that forum in 2009:

"If you can not find ammonia a piece of raw shrimp of fish work way better."

.......I have 6 cherry barbs in there as stated above.

"If my memory serves me you failed to follow the directions for Safe Start."

....Well safestart looks to have worked, whether I followed the directions correctly or not, water change was the only option that day. The instructions on the safestart are terrible!!!!


 

 
Hi there,
Wow, lots of questions! All are pretty simple, and we get them a lot too. I'll suggest marketing address them on our website, next time they update it. Out of curiosity, what forum is it?
So...where to begin? First, ideally you should set up the tank, and let it run at least 24 hours, then, shortly before you head off to the store for your first fish, add TSS to the tank. Within two hours, you should
add the fish. Our normal recommendation is to add one small fish per ten gallons of water. However, you CAN fully stock the tank, you just need to keep a close eye on it, and be sure to not complicate  matters by overfeeding as well. We recommend this method for African cichlid tanks since it is best to fully stock such a tank from the beginning due to territorial issues. For a novice fish-keeper, we'd recommend the one small fish per ten gallons rule for the first two weeks. Within two weeks, TSS should have fully cycled the tank and they can start slowly adding more fish, one at a time.In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the food the bacteria require to live.
 
If you already have fish, and are having an ammonia issue, it is best to get the ammonia levels down to below 4.0. 4.0 and higher is just as toxic to TSS as it is to fish. While 2.0 -3.5 PPM ammonia may harm some of the TSS bacteria, it should still have some effect. You may want to do a second dose several days after adding the first one, if you are not seeing the results you want. Keep in mind, these are bacteria, not a chemical, so results are slow to see. Give the product at least 5-7 days.
Best temperature for TSS is between 40 and 80 degrees. Freezing and extreme heat will destroy it. Refrigeration is okay, but not necessary. You can test the water any time, but really, you should probably wait at least 48 hours. We expect TSS to start slowly seeding the tank, and making a difference in about that time. You have to have some ammonia occur in the tank to provide the cycle needed, so it will usually create levels or reduce levels to around 1.0-1.5 ppm, and they should stay there for a week to 14 days, and then come down. Sorry, these levels would be for both ammonia and nitrite. These are considered stress, but not toxic, levels, and should not cause any long term damage to the fish.
We recommend waiting two weeks before a water change. Of course, if for some reason, the levels go up to a high level again, we would recommend a change at that point, and another dose. Usually, the hobbyist has done something wrong the first time, in such cases.
 
Nope, bacteria should not affect the pH.
Hmmm....be sure the levels are not already toxic, shake the container thoroughly, be sure to add the right dosage, do not use an ammonia detoxifying product, and be patient. It won't give you zero readings in an hour, like some folks think. By the way, carbon does not affect it but uv lights do...we get those questions too. And just an interesting point...the large aquariums, such as the Georgia Aquarium, and the Shedd Aquarium, as well as huge research labs in this country and other countries, also use TSS as well as the saltwater version Bio Spira.
If I have not addressed all of your questions, please let me know.
Regards,
Tetra Care

The above is from a site that TFF refuses to allow a link too. So TFF bears responsiblity for the above quote not being properly referenced to its source. If any member reading the above would like the link so they can read the full thread, please shoot me a PM and I will send you the URL.

 

[Essjay]

TwoTankAmin - could you clarify a point for me please.
 
The post that you quote says not to use anything that removes or detoxifies ammonia. It doesn't actually say not to use a dechlorinator. I do appreciate that most dechlorinators do have an additive that removes/detoxifies ammonia, but not all do. The dechlorinator I use, API tap water conditioner, does not - the instructions on my bottle say that if I have chloramine in my tapwater I should use a separate product to detoxify the ammonia released from the chloramine.
Does this means it is OK to do a water change using my dechlorinator with TSS?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

No you should be OK from that angle- but if you have chloramines in your tap water, you should probably use a different dechlorinator that does detox ammonia.
 
However, Tetra also advised against doing any water changes for two weeks after adding TSS. They state:

 
If you already have fish, and are having an ammonia issue, it is best to get the ammonia levels down to below 4.0. 4.0 and higher is just as toxic to TSS as it is to fish. While 2.0 -3.5 PPM ammonia may harm some of the TSS bacteria, it should still have some effect. You may want to do a second dose several days after adding the first one, if you are not seeing the results you want. Keep in mind, these are bacteria, not a chemical, so results are slow to see. Give the product at least 5-7 days..............

........... You can test the water any time, but really, you should probably wait at least 48 hours. We expect TSS to start slowly seeding the tank, and making a difference in about that time. You have to have some ammonia occur in the tank to provide the cycle needed, so it will usually create levels or reduce levels to around 1.0-1.5 ppm, and they should stay there for a week to 14 days, and then come down. Sorry, these levels would be for both ammonia and nitrite. These are considered stress, but not toxic, levels, and should not cause any long term damage to the fish.
We recommend waiting two weeks before a water change. Of course, if for some reason, the levels go up to a high level again, we would recommend a change at that point, and another dose. Usually, the hobbyist has done something wrong the first time, in such cases.