Fish Dying

[ProjectMayhem]

Since I don't think we can determine exactly how long this tank has been set up, let's move on.

You need to be doing at least weekly 30-50% water changes for the health of your fish, particularly with goldfish who are particularly big poo producers. And only changing the water every 3 weeks or so would definitely explain the recurrence of white spot in your tank.

It was set up for months with nothing in it, was a display item to show the set up it came with. A weekly water change of 30 - 50% surely would trigger an ammonia spike not to mention the stress on the fish.

I was told some advice that you need 2 Litres of water for every 1cm of fish. 200 litres would allow me 100 cm of fish and 4 adult Oranda's would be about 30cm.

the 1 Adult and 5 babies would be about the same, if you're sure it's over crowding I'll not put as many in but even with this amount of fish they have a lot of tank, I'd really like from you then some way to work out how many fish for how much water so I can work it out myself.

 

[hanny93]

set up for months with nothing in it = nothing for the bacteria in the filter media to feed on = uncycled filter.

You are basically starting from new.

goldfish such as oranda need 20-30 gallons PER FISH, 2 litres per 1cm is a very very rough guestimate and shouldnt be followed exactly.

 

[Louiseness]

It was set up for months with nothing in it, was a display item to show the set up it came with. A weekly water change of 30 - 50% surely would trigger an ammonia spike not to mention the stress on the fish.

1) If it was set up with nothing in it, it can't be cycled because no bacteria would grow without ammonia from fish waste to feed on.

2) Why would a water change trigger an ammonia spike?! Water changes REMOVE ammonia (and other chemicals).

 

[fluttermoth]

Water changes do not cause ammonia spikes (how would they? I'd be interested to hear your hypothesis!) nor do they stress fish; poor water is far more stressful. I run 6 tanks, containing well over 100 fish, and they all get 50% a week and I haven't lost a fish (apart from one Endler fry that came accidently from my LFS in a bag of marbled hatchets) in over 18 months (and that was a tiger barb who was over 7 years old).

The '1 cm of fish per 2 litres of water' is a guideline for small bodied, tropical fish that grow to less than three inches. It does not apply to coldwater fish, or to fish that have deep, chunky body shapes and grow to over three inches in size. Your orandas should be reaching a good 15 or 20 cms in length each, thus;

 

[This Old Spouse]

Since I don't think we can determine exactly how long this tank has been set up, let's move on.

You need to be doing at least weekly 30-50% water changes for the health of your fish, particularly with goldfish who are particularly big poo producers. And only changing the water every 3 weeks or so would definitely explain the recurrence of white spot in your tank.

It was set up for months with nothing in it, was a display item to show the set up it came with. A weekly water change of 30 - 50% surely would trigger an ammonia spike not to mention the stress on the fish.

set up for months with nothing in it = nothing for the bacteria in the filter media to feed on = uncycled filter.

You are basically starting from new.

You are starting from scratch, meaning you're in the middle of a fish-in cycle. Please click on the link below my sig (New to Fishkeeping? Please Click Here) to find out what to do next.

A weekly 30-50% water change won't trigger an ammonia spike. And living in their own waste is much more stressful. Not to mention life-threatening. You've already lost fish.

I'm not so worried about overstocking at this point. With a cycled filter and top-notch care you can be a little overstocked. But the fish you have will get too big to live comfortably in your tank.

<div><br></div><div>EDIT: Thanks, Fluttermoth. As usual, you've demonstrated well!&nbsp;</div>

 

[fluttermoth]

I'm sorry it sounds like we're all jumping on you; it's only that we care and want your fish to do well!

 

[Harlequins]

After reading through and getting confused over conflicting info you have been giving new tank/old tank/filtered/unfiltered,60litre tank/200litre tank ...

But has mentioned the tank was overstocked/overcrowded to begin and probably wasn't cycled,the fish probably died of poor water quality &/or ammonia/nitrite/nitrate poisoning ie whitespot/hole in the side and what sounded like fungus are all results of the water not being up to par...

Goldfish are very messy and do need to have a good weekly waterchange/gravel clean to keep them happy & healthy.

Just remember weekly w/cs are your best friend

Good luck with the other fish

 

[ProjectMayhem]

Well when I said adult I was again corrected, although the oranda is much bigger than the babies, it isn't an adult I am told and it will grow a lot bigger.

I am being told by my parents in the store that if I do a weekly water change they will die, they are also very confident in this assertion. I know you guys have much more extensive tanks than I do but they've been running this pet store for 20 years and only once, recently actually, had fish deaths when someone new to working there left the refill tap running on the tropical tank and they all died, but that was down to a new starter not their care. I don't mind trying weekly changes but as you can imagine I'd rather exhaust the other possibilities first.

Since no chemical downers have been used and bogwood instead, I have had no fish deaths. Although the big Oranda the small Oranda and the bottom feeder are all that is in the tank

 

[fluttermoth]

I'm sorry, but your parents are wrong.

This 'too many water changes wil kill your fish' myth has been around for years but it just is not true.

I don't want to sound mean, but are your parents pet store owners or fish specialists? All my tanks (6 currently) get 50 or 60% water changes every week and I haven't lost a fish (apart from to old age) for; I can't even remember how long.

I don't know why you'd want to 'exhaust other possibilties first'; water changes are cheap and easy and will save the lives of your fish while your tank cycles; it's as simple as that.

 

[hanny93]

weekly water change = death.

the only thing i can say to that is wow.

their fish must be extremely hardy, without water changes nitrates rise, then eventually so will nitrites and ammonia, water changes are the first and best piece of advice given when someone asks for help./

 

[ProjectMayhem]

I'm sorry, but your parents are wrong.

This 'too many water changes wil kill your fish' myth has been around for years but it just is not true.

I don't want to sound mean, but are your parents pet store owners or fish specialists? All my tanks (6 currently) get 50 or 60% water changes every week and I haven't lost a fish (apart from to old age) for; I can't even remember how long.

I don't know why you'd want to 'exhaust other possibilties first'; water changes are cheap and easy and will save the lives of your fish while your tank cycles; it's as simple as that.

The otherside to that is that they only do water changes every 3 weeks and have never lost a fish, well I imagine they have but it's never a great deal. They are pet store owners but the fish is the main part of the store.

I have discovered the issue any how now, I had the water sample taken to a lab in the hospital I work at. Toxic levels of butane and alcohol in the tank water. I have a plug in air freshener since spray ones I imagined would kill the fish, seems either someone is spraying air freshener in the room or the plug in one is having the same affect.

Thank you all for the advice, I have a second tank, I will do weekly changes on this second one and if they survive do it on my main one.

 

[fluttermoth]

Your second tank is headed for rapid disaster, with or without weekly water changes, as I have commented on your other thread.

 

[hanny93]

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/6756-10-rules-for-healthy-fishkeeping/

Read number 9.

 

[Harlequins]

Plug in air fresheners can have the same effect on fish has spray ones,they still spray into the air,unless you have a airtight lid on your tank it can get into your tank,also having an air pump this pumps air into the tank,any residue in the air will get drawn in...so best not use the plug in.

I can understand you want to take your parents advice with 20 yrs experience,but you wouldn't have come here if you didn't want to take a 'second opinion' and understand the reason why your fish died.

Please listen to the good advise being given by others,they're trying to help your situation...but you seem to be dismissing it...

Don't get me wrong i'm not downing your parents pet shop has this can apply to any lfs,but the turn over in pet shops is different to keeping a tank,they have better filtration,fish come & go all the time,but how do they know how long the fish survive in other peeps tanks.Some peeps dont go back saying their fish have died,so the shop isn't aware of any problems,what i'm saying is that just because your parents do a w/c every 3 wks,doesn't mean to say the fish are healthy when they get sold on.

I have learnt from experience of taking good advise by doing weekly w/c's and testing regularly to ensure the water is good,especially on a newly set up tank.and i've never had a problem where a fish have died because i did a w/c,they actually become more lively after a w/c...

 

[ProjectMayhem]

I have commenced weekly changes, I have changed my mind after changing the water in a week and it being very murky, will continue doing this, they're not dead so it looks good.