Fish Dying

[ProjectMayhem]

Hi all,

I had a new aquarium made up while I was on holiday. My parents built it up.

Since introducing several Oranda's in the sub-tropical tank many have died. I started with 4 adult Oranda of which 3 died, the first I believe was overfeeding as it's stomach burst however the next 2 got white spot (which I treated), once gone a few days later they suddenly stopped swimming and were dead within an hour.

This prompted me to do a test on the water of the tank. PH was 8.9 which concerned me and I countered this with a chemical downer to 7.2. Nitrate and Ammonia were 0.

I got 5 more baby Oranda's and two blackmaws. The tank seemed fine then one of the Oranda's seemed to have something stuck in it's side, I removed this and it looked like plastic (although I'm very cautious with these things and no idea how it happened). The fish seemed quite down after this and I just assumed it was getting an infection and was going to die eventually.

2 days later the fish got white spot which with immediate treatment after the 3 weekly water change went away. On testing the Ph was 8.3 so again I used a downer to go back to 7.2. Nitrate and Ammonia were low but even so I reduced this to 0 because again I'm overly cautious when it comes to pets.
the next day the fish with the hole in it stopped swimming and floated around in the tank for a few hours however within this time my smallest oranda suddenly stopped swimming after being fine a few seconds before and died within 15 minutes, the already ill fish then died an hour later. The next morning one of the blackmaws was dead and an hour later another Oranda. I went to work and came back to another Oranda dead leaving me with 1 adult, 1 baby and 1 blackmaw.

I had the PH of the tap water tested to see if it was something in the tank causing the high Ph and on testing (laboratory standard digital tester) my tap water is 8.85 but this is a hard water area, nitrate and ammonia level is 0. The high Ph would then seem to be nothing to do with the tank as it is a high Ph to begin with, I have read previous posts and a lot of people say the High Ph wouldn't kill my fish so I am happy to stop using downers however this Ph level is 8.85 which is higher than anyone else has mentioned.

Any idea's if stopping using chemical downers and switching to something slow and natural like wood or peat will fix the dying issue. Since this, I have moved the 1 baby Oranda and 1 blackmaw into a seperate tank with all approved decorations and they seem happier, the main tank now has 1 adult Oranda which also seems fine.

 

[hanny93]

Hello, sorry to hear youve been having some trouble, first we need some more information.

1) How big is the tank litres and dimensions)
2) Is it cycled, if so for how long?
3)What is your maintenance routine?
4) What is your filtration rated at?

I'd say now, stop using that downer, as it will just cause a yoyo effect with pH and is much more harmful to fish than a stable high one.

Adding bogwood will lower the pH slightly, as will peat bags in your filter, but thats not particularly important yet.

I have a feeling the fish are dying due to a combination of weakened immune systems from being in the lfs and crashing pH.

 

[ProjectMayhem]

60 Litres, I'm not sure what you mean by cycled so I'm going to have to look into that. I did have a slight problem with the filter itself it slowed down but I cleaned it out with the tank water and it works again now.

Filtration rate is 150 litres per minute.

Maintenance wise, I clean the tank with the pump getting the gravel (like a vacuum) until 1/3 of the water is drained then top the water up with tap water after adding tap safe to remove chlorine and heavy metals. I do this every 3 weeks.

I was going to stop the downers after reading here but I'm concerned that 8.85 is very high, well to fish.

 

[fluttermoth]

I know you've said that your ammonia was either 0 or low, but I'd still place bets on either ammonia or nitrite poisoning being what killed your fish.

Without wanting to sound harsh, it doesn't help that you are massively overstocking your tank. Goldfish need a minimum of 100l for one or two fish, and then another 40 or 50l for each additional fish.

Goldfish are pretty tough and I don't believe even your high pH would be killing them that quickly.

More testing, more water changes and re-thinking your stocking are what you need to be doing, I think. A 60l tank would be very nice for some tropical fish if you got a heater for it.

 

[hanny93]

I agree 100% with fluttermoth.

If you dont know what cycling is, then my bets are that it isnt cyled.

Cycling is basically a period of time where you add some form of ammonia to the tank to build up a healthy amount of bacteria in the filter media that is able to support a number of fish, by processing the ammonia they produce into nitrite and then nitrate, which plants can then use.

You are also hugely overstocked, especially if you arent cycled, and you definately arent doing enough water changes. The minimum for an established tank IMO is 30% every week, including a decent gravel vac. For you i'd suggest 50% every day or at the very least, every other day.


Can you give us more info,
1) How long has the tank had fish in?
2) What is the actual tank brand/name and the brand/name of the filter?
3) What testkit are you using?

 

[ProjectMayhem]

I agree 100% with fluttermoth.

If you dont know what cycling is, then my bets are that it isnt cyled.

Cycling is basically a period of time where you add some form of ammonia to the tank to build up a healthy amount of bacteria in the filter media that is able to support a number of fish, by processing the ammonia they produce into nitrite and then nitrate, which plants can then use.

You are also hugely overstocked, especially if you arent cycled, and you definately arent doing enough water changes. The minimum for an established tank IMO is 30% every week, including a decent gravel vac. For you i'd suggest 50% every day or at the very least, every other day.


Can you give us more info,
1) How long has the tank had fish in?
2) What is the actual tank brand/name and the brand/name of the filter?
3) What testkit are you using?

Tank has had fish in for 40 days now.
Can't tell you the brand name because it doesn't say anywhere, it was set up while I was on holiday and the boxes are gone.
Using a digital quality check test used in Labs as my uncle works in a factory where the waste and product must have specific Ph's and levels of certain things. The levels I've given you are absolutely accurate, ammonia and nitrite is 0 and PH is 8.85, the ammonia and nitrite level at the highest when I reduced it read 0.05 which is fairly low.

Overstocking is interesting, my parents run a pet shop but they're confused by this as all their advice has resulted in dead fish. The stocking suprises me as the store has had no dead fish and they are kept in an aquarium of the same size, albeit no decoration, with more fish than I have.

 

[fluttermoth]

I understand why you're confused, but the tanks in fish shops have massive (cycled!) filtration sytems running, so the actual volume of water the fish are in is much larger than what is in the actual tank.

 

[ProjectMayhem]

I understand why you're confused, but the tanks in fish shops have massive (cycled!) filtration sytems running, so the actual volume of water the fish are in is much larger than what is in the actual tank.

They don't in this shop, don't mean to be flippant and argue but it is my parents store, they set it up just like theirs. I am thinking overcrowding could be a problem because although they keep the tanks well stocked I imagine there is a good rotation of them. I will see then because like I said main tank has now only 1 adult and the other 1 baby and a blackmaw so if they don't die I guess you're right.

Will give this a try anyway thanks.

 

[This Old Spouse]

Is the pH that high in the pet shop? I'd think that the pH going up and down to those extremes would be very harmful. Using some bogwood/driftwood and some peat balls would help keep it lowered and stable.

And it also sounds like there may be some kind of parasite involved, especially when you said the first fish died when its stomach burst??

ALL pet shops are generally overstocked. But they have high-powered filter setups to offset that. You're not doing enough water changes for a new tank. Your fish are dying. Something is seriously wrong, wouldn't you say? Please don't get any more fish until you can pinpoint the problem.

 

[ProjectMayhem]

Is the pH that high in the pet shop? I'd think that the pH going up and down to those extremes would be very harmful. Using some bogwood/driftwood and some peat balls would help keep it lowered and stable.

And it also sounds like there may be some kind of parasite involved, especially when you said the first fish died when its stomach burst??

ALL pet shops are generally overstocked. But they have high-powered filter setups to offset that. You're not doing enough water changes for a new tank. Your fish are dying. Something is seriously wrong, wouldn't you say? Please don't get any more fish until you can pinpoint the problem.

I don't want to get more fish, they're quite expensive and I don't like them dying. The tank itself isn't new it has been used for years before, but it was resealed (the sealent isn't toxic) then refilled and left to run for 2 weeks before fish were added. The tank and filter system is exactly the same as the pet stores.

The PH in store is 7.2.

 

[Louiseness]

The tank itself isn't new it has been used for years before, but it was resealed (the sealent isn't toxic) then refilled and left to run for 2 weeks before fish were added.

They mean 'new' tank as in newly set up, not new out of the box. If your readings truly are 0 across the board then it's a bit of a mystery, overstocking is the only thing I can think of. Have you tested for Nitrates? If you're only changing water every three weeks it seems like high nitrates might be a culprit.

 

[This Old Spouse]

The tank itself isn't new it has been used for years before, but it was resealed (the sealent isn't toxic) then refilled and left to run for 2 weeks before fish were added.

They mean 'new' tank as in newly set up, not new out of the box. If your readings truly are 0 across the board then it's a bit of a mystery, overstocking is the only thing I can think of. Have you tested for Nitrates? If you're only changing water every three weeks it seems like high nitrates might be a culprit.

Exactly. Two weeks isn't enough time to cycle a tank, unless you were able to use established media in the filter.

 

[ProjectMayhem]

Hi sorry it's been a late reply, had to get more information from my parents.

The tank was already in use in the store the filter is months old and they let it run through the Ammonia and Nitrite cycles until all was 0. They're saying the ammonia and nitrites aren't an issue as the cycle was completed quick with it being an old tank.

The first fish which were introduced the 4 adult Oranda's. The first I think died from over eating the other two died the way I've mentioned they kept dying however that was before any water change (wasn't due one for another week as they'd only been in the tank 2 weeks) and before any chemical downers were introduced. Currently there is only 1 adult Oranda and I've had to move another baby Oranda from my smaller 16.5 litre tank as I put in 2 Danios and it already had a Blackmaw in. They seem fine just the two of them since I stopped using the downers but it doesn't explain how the first ones died.

The tank is also 200 litres not 60 as I previously mentioned, seems they hold more water than they look lol.

 

[hanny93]

What?

So youre saying it isnt new, its been set up in the shop with a completed cycle?

Right.
How long was it set up?
How long was the filter with all the current media in there?
How long was the filter out of water during the change over?
Were there any fish in it when it was in the shop?
If so, what were they?


and 200l still isnt enough for all those fish.

Also, weekly waterchanges are the norm, not 3, so you might want to change that, especially if you are cycling again.

 

[This Old Spouse]

Since I don't think we can determine exactly how long this tank has been set up, let's move on.

You need to be doing at least weekly 30-50% water changes for the health of your fish, particularly with goldfish who are particularly big poo producers. And only changing the water every 3 weeks or so would definitely explain the recurrence of white spot in your tank.