Fish Constantly Dying

This is true, but there should still be bacteria in the gravel, which seems like it still wouldn't instantly kill new fish. Agreed though best practice is to keep the cartridge there.
without an undergravel filter there aren't enough bacteria in the gravel. and established fish can handle a gradual spike, where new fish being introduced during a spike coming from different water parameters are going to experience much more stress. never ever change cartridge at same time as water change, if you have 2 cartridges only change one, and only rinse them in cool dechlorinated water
 
I can't imagine the frustration you're feeling. I guess at some point there's just stuff that is still a mystery to the hobby. I'm glad you have the 7 stable fish in there. Maybe some time will resolve whatever is going on.
 
I am thinking the fish are not in good shape when you buy them. I would not be surprised if both stores bouy a lot of their stock from similar sources.

A lot of this stuff is like being a detective trying to find the culprit. Often this can mean eliminating suspects. I am doubtful that the cause is cycling related. The reason is that those 7 fish are not immune to the effects of either ammonia or nitrite. So if there is enough of either present to kill new fish it should harm or kill some or all of the 7. This would also seem to rule out something toxic in your tap water or the tank itself.

And that keeps me circling back to the source. Quality retail fish stores are few and far between. the internet killed off many of them. It is a hard business to make a profit in, I know because I was willing to open and LFS with only on condition. I did not have to make 1 penny of profit for myself, But I needed to be 99% sure I would not lose a decent sized investment. I never opened a store.

I have only found one store I truly trust. I do not shop there because the prices they have to charge are very high.

So I will ask a few questions I did not spot from others. When you visit either of the stores where you have bought your fish, I assume you walk around some and look into the various tanks. if so do you notice any dead fish? Do you notice any fish showing signs of damage from being attacked? Do you see any fish having issue swimming? Do the tanks in general look clean?

I did not see if anybody suggested you get liquid test kits. If not grab ones for ammonia, nitrite, pH and if you can afford more, one for KH/GH. ATI makes them all. You can probably get them online for less than at a store.
 
I feel your frustration. I also had a tank that had this issue. The only thing that stayed alive in it was guppies and it was so over-stocked with them breeding it wasnā€™t funny.
I still wonder what happened to the killifish (lasted a few months) as they bred in there so I thought they were doing ok but then one day they all just vanished, no sign of them anywhere in or outside the tank.
I eventually after 2 years sold the tank and bought anotherā€¦ no issue at all. Iā€™m aware Iā€™ll sound like a crazy person but that tank was just jinxed. Often wonder what happened to it with the person that bought it.
 
I am thinking the fish are not in good shape when you buy them. I would not be surprised if both stores bouy a lot of their stock from similar sources.

A lot of this stuff is like being a detective trying to find the culprit. Often this can mean eliminating suspects. I am doubtful that the cause is cycling related. The reason is that those 7 fish are not immune to the effects of either ammonia or nitrite. So if there is enough of either present to kill new fish it should harm or kill some or all of the 7. This would also seem to rule out something toxic in your tap water or the tank itself.

And that keeps me circling back to the source. Quality retail fish stores are few and far between. the internet killed off many of them. It is a hard business to make a profit in, I know because I was willing to open and LFS with only on condition. I did not have to make 1 penny of profit for myself, But I needed to be 99% sure I would not lose a decent sized investment. I never opened a store.

I have only found one store I truly trust. I do not shop there because the prices they have to charge are very high.

So I will ask a few questions I did not spot from others. When you visit either of the stores where you have bought your fish, I assume you walk around some and look into the various tanks. if so do you notice any dead fish? Do you notice any fish showing signs of damage from being attacked? Do you see any fish having issue swimming? Do the tanks in general look clean?

I did not see if anybody suggested you get liquid test kits. If not grab ones for ammonia, nitrite, pH and if you can afford more, one for KH/GH. ATI makes them all. You can probably get them online for less than at a store.
But for nearly all of the fish dying again and again? With the exception of the few that live a seemingly good life? The sheer volume of fish that I have lost and the extremely similar nature of them dying is a mystery, but I don't think they are all bad.

In general in the store I have bought most of my fish from, 99% of the fish look good. I have been there a couple dozen times and I have seen a dying one here or there, but almost all of them look good to me. The store seems to do a good business as well. I have never been in there and not had other customers in there as well. The store has done liquid tests on my water a few times for me and each time they said everything looks good. They did tell me that they had one other customer of theirs have a similar problem to mine a while ago but that was it. With everything checking out well in the tests the only suggesting really was to maybe change out everything that is in the tank. It is really about the only thing I have not tried.
 
Looking good is nor a sign of fish being healthy. Looking bad, however, usually indicates a problem of some sort. I have bought a lot of fish over the years and fewer than 5% came from stores. Most stores are lousy, imo. The good ones need to be more expensive than the poor ones.

Whenever I get new fish I do not acclimate them at all. They come out of the bag and into the tank water as soon as I get them. But I also Q almost all my new fish.

Understand that I have bougt loads of fish that ran anywhere from #3,500 to over $12,000. These are rarer and pricier fish than what goe into my planted community tanks. And they all get plopped and dropped. I never acclimate. And most of the respectible sellers I know also plop and drop rather than acclimate.

As for you water change schedule, consider this. The nature of the cycle is that it creates acid. How much and how fast depends on a number of factors. When there is more acid in a tank, the pH will drop. So, for most tanks doing weekly water changes of 50% or more is a good idea. It helps keep one;s parameters steady.

I am very lucky to have great well water. I do not use dechlor unless away from home at fish event where I cannot use my water. But, I have done a bit of research. Unless Stress Coat has changed what it contain, there is Aloe Vera in it. I will never allow this in my water. If you go to the API site and then to their page on Stress coat, you will read this (red added by me):

STRESS COATā„¢​

APIĀ® STRESS COAT water conditioner makes tap water safe for fish by removing chlorine, chloramines and heavy metals from tap water, and contains the healing power of Aloe Vera to reduce fish stress by up to 40% and to heal damaged tissue and wounds.

I have a reputation of reading a lot of research papers relating to our hobby. This includes one paper published in 2011.

Harnish, R.A., Colotelo, A.H. and Brown, R.S., 2011. A review of polymer-based water conditioners for reduction of handling-related injury. Reviews in Fish Biology and Fisheries, 21, pp.43-49.

This is in the paper:
Some additives contain aloe extract from leaves of the Aloe vera plant. Manufacturers of these products claim that the Aloe vera extract promotes healing of damaged tissue. One potential drawback to water additives that contain Aloe vera extract or CMC is the addition of organic waste load that can reduce the water quality and oxygen levels in a closed system. This may not be an issue, depending on the density of ļ¬sh, length of time ļ¬sh are held, and oxygen content of the water. However, the effects of these substances on gill tissue are unclear. Taiwo et al. (2005) tested the survival and behavior of tilapia (Oreochromis niloticus) exposed to different concentrations of aqueous extract of A. vera
for up to 96 h. One hundred percent of tilapia exposed to 50 ppm A. vera died within the duration of the experiment. Fish used in this experiment exhibited severe depigmentation and destruction of organs (including gills). The evidence of the toxic effects of A. vera on ļ¬sh solidiļ¬es the need to empirically test water conditioners, and their chemical components, for potential negative effects on ļ¬sh.
You can read the entire paper here https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-for-reduction-of-handling-related-injury.pdf

I have not found further research on this but have not looked for it in the more recent past. I just know I do not want to put aloe vera into my tank water. Hower, there is also a great deal of research on using aloe vera as and additive to food fed to fish and this is an entirely different story. Most papers conclude the use of this substance in fish food can often be is reasonable thing to do.

p.s. I just did a quick scan for Aloe vera rsearch since 2012 and most papers which report beneficial results when aloe vera is use to treat specific diseases, ll still say that Aloe Vera is not ideal in terms of it's effect on the gills. But there is a big difference between using Aloe Vera to treat something v.s using it as a regular component of one's dechlor.

I do keep some dechlor on hand for thravel and then for dealing with bleaching dipping plants so they can immediately go into a tank. I have both SeaChem Prime and Kordon Amquel or Amquel Plus.

One last note re the health of fish in local stores. It is typical that the source of fish for stores in a given area is used by many stores if not all. I used to do a pick-up on Sundays of fish being landed from overseas. I did this for a good friend and I was also allowed to buy at import prices any fish on the lists I wanted, Sometimes I shared a box with my friend for a specific species. When I would be at the transshipper there were many other a;so picking up fish. i used to see a Petco truck there regularly.

My friend and I did Q on the fish we got but my Q was way longer than hers. Many stores do not Q fish and want to sell them as soon as they can. They cannot sell dead fish. šŸ¤Ŗ
 
Thank you for all of that information! Can you give me any recommendations on where to buy fish if not at a local store? Thank you!
 
@Sotbas
You do not give your location beyond USA. This makes it hard to suggest anyplace which mighy be local to you. The rare the fish one wants to buy, the more likely it can be to locate a seller. Most of the fish what I work with are not sold in retail stores. One needs to find more specialized sellers to find such fish.

Over the years I managed to find the sellers I needed to discover. But I am now at the end of my serious hobby years. The last big fish purchase I made was in early 2020 and it was an import deal, so most of the fish were got to be resold. However, I got 25 fish for myself at a price which is really great. All we had to do was to buy 350 fish. But there are still good places to shop. They are just not as easy to find. You have to work at it.

One good place to start is a local fish club. Some members breed fish, others have been doing fish for so long they know the best places locally, if they exist. As a general rule, fish stores will be a better option than pet stores where fish are just a part of what they do. I have two stores within about a 30 minute drive which are superb. But the prices they change are pretty high. I have shopped at one but not the other. Most folks who have been in the hobby for a long time tend to be in a fish clud, Such folks know the best places to shop based on years of experience. And they will know all the stores within a reasonable drive where one should shop.

I have not bought there in ages but AquaBid used to have some good sellers. And there there is feedback. Usually the higer rated sellers are a decent risk. A lot of them breed what they sell.

One good supplier out there is Wet Spot in Portland Oregon. Most folks do not realize that this place is the retail arm of a big import wholesale operation. They have a great selection and they know how to ship.

Finally, there are a number of weekend fish events. Some of the best contacts I have made have come from attending such events. Usually the vendor room will have a number of good sellers. Events like that are where I have been able to meet and talk to some of the most well know experts in the world of fish. They can be scientist, collectors, breeders and hobby sellers as well as some of the more commercial operations.

Basically, it takes some effort to discover the best sellers for the fish in which one is interested. Here is one important factor to consider when trying to determine where to buy. I breed rare expensive plecos and I sell them to pay for my hobby costs. I take great pride in the quality of what I raise and I sell at fair prices. I stand behind what I sell. There are plenty of hobbyists out there who have a similar attitude.

But a retail operation is a business. When this involves live animals there are more risks to both sellers and buyers. I will spend a bunch of money to buy the fish which I will try to spawn. Often they start small and I have to grow them. But once I have them spawning and can sell enough offspring to recover my costs, the fish born in my tanks are pretty low cost to me. A store or retail online operation mostly buys the fish that they sell. Given these facts if I lose fish in transit I mostly lose the income from the sale. But when a retail operation buys stock they put out cash. If they lose fish they lose money. So they are often motivated to move stock as quickly as possible. The longer a store has to hold fish before they sell, the greater their cost for the fish becomes due to rent, electricity, care, feeding etc..

Most sellers want to be honest and not to have unhealthy fish that die before they sell them or soon after. Unfortunately, the economics involved may influence how sellers deal with things. Reputation matters. So, one good way to find the good sources for fish is from other hobbyists who have been around for a while. Such people usually have multiple tanks ans an assortment of species. And that brings us back to fish clubs where we all meet each other on a regular basis.

Sites like this one can also provide decent sources, The problem is there is no filter here which tells users whom they can ask for advice. The fish specis bought by folks just entering the hobby tend to be the easier less expensive ones. It is one thing to buy a fish for $5 and have it die than if you are spending $50 or more per fish. The more expespensive a fish is, the more important it is for it to be healthy. For sellers, replacing a few inexpensive fish is one thing, it is another if a $150 fish dies in transit or soon after one gets it in their tank.

It took me years to get some of the fish I wanted which are very pricey. The delay was caused by the amount of time it took me to locate sellers from whom I could expect to get healthy fish and correctly identified as well.

Finally, while it is not a guarantee, but the number of tanks a fish keeper has as well as the number of years they have been keeping fish are good indicators of their level of knowledge about the fish but also where to acquire them.

As far as what we put into our tanks besides the fish and the water, ir is important to know we are not anything that might be harmful. If we are not 110% sure a piece of wood, a rock, substrate etc. is safe, then do not use it. The problems are usually something we cannot see. That pretty rock on the side of the road may have weed killer or exhaust fumes on it. Thay lovely piece of wood may not be so great internally. A lot of this is just common sense.
 

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