Fish Are Flicking

[mark4785]

I'm not too sure what is wrong with my fish but the amount of deaths occurring now is getting beyond a joke and I really do need to establish what is in the tank that is causing the fish to die off.

My 120L aquarium has been set up for 2 months after completing a successful fishless cycle. I placed 5 Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish (DNT), 5 Black Neon Tetras (BNT) and 2 German Blue Rams (GBR) into it. From first introducing them to now, 4 DNT have died and today (29th Aug) on my way back from holiday, my auntie who was looking after the fish at the time informed me that 1 of the GBR's had died.

Here are the symptoms:

The DNT, one at a time, started to gasp at the surface. One by one they would eventually go off food and die within 4-5 days. Other species of fish remained fine. One of the DNT died suddenly after purchase; it had a darker appearance.

The GBR's have been scratching themselves on surrounding objects ever since introducing some new plants and DNT into the tank; the seller of the plant told me gill/body flukes could have been contracted from the plant I purchased which was called Elodea densa; now not in the tank. The female GBR became very picky with food, mainly only eating bloodworms and often rejecting all kinds of flakes and pellets. On the 27th of August, the female ram developed a very small red spot just above the pectoral fin. I noticed this had appeared suddenly out of nowhere. It certainly wasn't there earlier in the day and she infact was eating very well earlier that day. Ever since the spot appeared though she had no appetite. She would take in and spit out any food that was offered. On the 29th of Aug the female died.

Due to all of the flicking/scratching behaviour I have treated the water with Sterazin which acts against body/gill flukes and internal worms. It hasn't helped the situation as the male ram will still itch himself very frantickly off all objects and substrate. It has however stopped what I perceived to be gill flukes as none of the fish are gasping anymore. Facies are normal black colour and appetite of all the fish is consistently good, with the exception of the female GBR.

Water Stats: 0 ppm ammonia and nitrite, 5 ppm of nitrate, PH is 7.4, GH is 9/10 dH, KH is 7 dH. Water is fully dechlorinated with Tetra Aquasafe.

As can be imagined, I'd appreciate any tips at this point with regards to stopping the scratching/flicking. As of the 31st of August, I have completed a full WaterLife Sterazin fluke treatment and I've now started to treat the water with it yet again after no improvements in terms of the fish flicking/yawning.

Edit: I have uploaded some footage of my remaining male German Blue Ram yawning, flicking and showing signs of irritation - Click here to watch.. Anybody witnessed this kind of behaviour and have clues as to why it is acting in this way?

Thanks.

 

[mark4785]

Any pointers? Should I stop using sterazin and switch to salt treatment to remove skin flukes?

Mark.

 

[elisew]

Hi mark

How often and what amount of water are you changing? Regular water changes do a huge amount of good in an aquarium.

The addition of salt to an aquarium can be very beneficial but depending on the types of fish you have, there are some fish who dont like it or can't take it.

I'm sorry I can't give you a more definitive answer as I'm far from being an expert like some of the other members are but it's frustrating when you don't receive a reply.

Hopefully someone else will come along and help you more than I can.

Could you please post a pic of your tank so we can see what plants you have? Sometimes having certain plants in your tank can be a problem.

 

[mark4785]

Hi mark

How often and what amount of water are you changing? Regular water changes do a huge amount of good in an aquarium.

The addition of salt to an aquarium can be very beneficial but depending on the types of fish you have, there are some fish who dont like it or can't take it.

I'm sorry I can't give you a more definitive answer as I'm far from being an expert like some of the other members are but it's frustrating when you don't receive a reply.

Hopefully someone else will come along and help you more than I can.

Could you please post a pic of your tank so we can see what plants you have? Sometimes having certain plants in your tank can be a problem.

Hi Elisew.

I do weekly 25% water changes at the moment.

I agree that salt may not be suitable with certain species and I think its a real hazard to aquatic plants so I suppose I can't use salt. The plants I have are named Anubias barteri var. nana, Cryptocoryne x willisii, Microsorum pteropus narrow, Bacopa monnieri and Taxiphyllum barbieri.

 

[N0body Of The Goat]

While fish are ill, regular fresh water is going to be of benefit. Try 25% water changes daily until they hopefully recover, compensating for removed Sterazin when refilling tank (i.e. add 25% of previous total doses into the fresh de-chlorinated water before even thinking about the next scheduled dose).

 

[mark4785]

Well I finally managed to get a 7 minute recording of the male GBR showing irritation, yawning and right at the end he flicks himself off of the submerged plant pot. I have treated for all of these symptoms with WaterLife Sterazin, completing 1 whole course and now onto my second one. Earlier I noticed not only the Ram flicking, but the Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish and some of the Black Neon Tetra were also doing this. My LFS provided me with some bagged substance, apparently a one-dose fluke treatment, so I may have to resort to using this since the Sterazin hasn't helped one bit.

None of them have gone off their food but it's only a matter of time before a secondary infection abbrasion occurs from all of that flicking in which case I'm probably going to lose yet more fish despite my best efforts.

Here is video footage of the male Ram flicking and yawning. He flicks during the last 30 seconds of the footage, yawns 2-3 times and moves his fins very quickly as though something is irritating him quite a number of times within 7 minutes - click here to see the footage.

Symptom Breakdown During Video Footage:
Yawning seen at 1 minute 19 seconds.
Yawning again/strange mouth movement seen at 3 minutes 17 seconds.
Strange fin movement at 3 minutes 19 seconds.
Minor shake (as though irritated) seen at 7 minutes 18 seconds.
Minor shake/jerk seen at 7 minutes 28 seconds.
Flicking/scratching seen at 7 minutes 38 seconds.

edit: I'm sorry but unless you can say how a daily water change stops skin/gill flukes I don't see why it is such a necessity at this point. Fresh water would presumably just perk the flukes up?

 

[blackers92]

One of my keyhole cichlids did the exact same thing.

it would go on its side and then upright itself, then it would occasionally stick all of its fins out and have its mouth open. I couldn't do anything to fix it, i tried all kinds of treatments in conjunction with water changes but none worked. Eventually it stopped eating, or ate very little, it lasted about 2 months before it died. As tight as this sounds, the keyhole was about $5, i cannot justify spending such large amounts of money trying to save it. I used standard on the shelf medications, but I was not willing to import some specific medication and risk killing my other fish. If I was you I would take him out and put him in a hospital tank in case whatever he has spreads. But the fact that a lot of you fish have died makes me think that it is something to do with your water quality. Fish gasping at the surface can be a sign of inadequate oxygen, but I saw an airstone in your video which would probably provide enough surface disruption.

I think that you should just keep up the water changes, there is always bad bacteria in water, when your fishes immune system drops they become more prone to diseases and the bad bacteria. Is there anything near your tank that could be making your fish stressed? loud music, slamming doors? I had one of my tanks next to a stereo when I started and the fish never lasted long.

hopefully someone with some more knowledge will be able to help you

 

[N0body Of The Goat]

edit: I'm sorry but unless you can say how a daily water change stops skin/gill flukes I don't see why it is such a necessity at this point. Fresh water would presumably just perk the flukes up?

Following your logic, perhaps you should try and source some the most putrid water locally to put in your tank. After all, it might make the flukes feel unwell!

Just have a little think for a moment about the conditions found in a typical human hospital...

Did a cleaner, more sterile environment come to mind, increasing the chances of patients recovering from all sorts of problems? Well something along those lines ought to have sprung to mind.

Surely you want to provide your fish with fresher water during times of illness, increasing the frequency and volume of each water change, providing them with a cleaner environment. Fish often purk up after considerable water changes, it is mentioned regularly in this forum, not just by me either!

 

[fluffycabbage]

from a very-much-a-novice's point of view, can i ask what your oxygen levels are? i think you may need to take out that crypt too, looks a little ill
theyve had so many chemicals in there with them, im also wondering if just a lot of fresh clean water is what they need. I always do that if my fish need it, and 99% of the time they perk up.

hope you resolve your problems

 

[loraxchick]

yawning and shimmy is likely external parasites. flicking only confirms thtat more. are the fish still eating? id get some parasite meds and see if it helps.
cheers

 

[elisew]

from a very-much-a-novice's point of view, can i ask what your oxygen levels are? i think you may need to take out that crypt too, looks a little ill
theyve had so many chemicals in there with them, im also wondering if just a lot of fresh clean water is what they need. I always do that if my fish need it, and 99% of the time they perk up.

hope you resolve your problems

I`d say the same to be honest.

The plant you have in there looks pretty poorly and that in itself can affect the quality of the water. Can you either cut off the grotty leaves or take it out completely? You have anubias in there? which looks quite nice and healthy.

I don`t see much in the way of flow movement, can you adjust the strength of the filter so there`s at least a slight 'current' flowing through?

I would seriously recommend a larger amount of water changes, regularly. You`d be surprised at how much of a difference clean water can make to your fish.

I`m far from being an expert but those are my thoughts.

 

[mark4785]

from a very-much-a-novice's point of view, can i ask what your oxygen levels are? i think you may need to take out that crypt too, looks a little ill
theyve had so many chemicals in there with them, im also wondering if just a lot of fresh clean water is what they need. I always do that if my fish need it, and 99% of the time they perk up.

hope you resolve your problems

I`d say the same to be honest.

The plant you have in there looks pretty poorly and that in itself can affect the quality of the water. Can you either cut off the grotty leaves or take it out completely? You have anubias in there? which looks quite nice and healthy.

I don`t see much in the way of flow movement, can you adjust the strength of the filter so there`s at least a slight 'current' flowing through?

I would seriously recommend a larger amount of water changes, regularly. You`d be surprised at how much of a difference clean water can make to your fish.

I`m far from being an expert but those are my thoughts.

Only the leaves showing a yellow colour are of poor health. Any that are brown coloured have hair algae on them. I'll remove the yellow leaves later on.

The outlet pipe/nozzle can be rotated 360 degrees to allow flexibility over which direction the water comes out. Theres nothing that actually adjusts how much water comes out per hour.

I will start doing 30-40% water changes every day or every 2 days and see if anything happens. A lot seem to be saying regular water changes apparently perks their fish up. Unless there's a known factual reason for this I'm a bit skeptical.

My LFS, who I rang today stated that the Sterazin fluke treatment i've been using can in fact cause the filter bacteria to die off despite the manufacturer stating the product is safe to use in the presence of a biological filter. They said that Sterazin is highly effective so the fish would not be flicking at this point due to flukes as the Sterazin in most cases would have erradicated them by now. They also told me that my GH level of my water is quite high for GBR's.

The last sentence above may lead anyone to think it's a water parameter issue causing the flicking BUT, I also have a Dwarf Neon Rainbowfish and 5 Black Neon Tetras, all of who were flicking yesterday. These are NOT sensitive fish and the GH level is optimum for them.

Mark.

 

[elisew]

The larger water changes are a great start and it`s good to see that you`re prepared to put the time in to do that, there`s many who can`t be bothered to help their fish if it involves a bit more time and I`m glad you`re not one of them
The whole point behind regular water changes is that IF there are any impurities in the water, by consistently doing changes with fresh, dechlorinated water you`re diluting and eventually removing those impurities. The treatments you add are taken in through the gills and around the scales so the fish are taking in what they need to medicate them before you come along with clean water.........hope that makes sense?

As much as we all at some time or another have taken advice from a lfs, I`d take a lot of what they tell you with a pinch of salt......just have a read around the forum to see what utter bull some people get told. Experienced keepers will be a much better source of info.

I apologise if you`ve already said previously but do you have any carbon in your filter? Carbon will remove meds/treatments from the water as it filters so can actually lessen the effect that the meds have on your fish so would have to be removed completely whilst you`re adding meds.


I have 4 GBR`s too, along with a couple of neons and the water in my area is pretty hard but there`s no flicking or irritation. The only time I`ve ever had a problem with any of my fish flicking was when the water quality was terrible due to the wrong plants being in the tank, this in turn resulted in the plants becoming grotty and beginning to rot which was very unhealthy for the fish.
I have since removed those plants, completely re-scaped my tank, I perform more regular water changes and my fish and plants are healthier than they`ve ever been.

Hopefully we`ll get to the bottom of the problem you`re having, I just wish it could be sorted a bit quicker for you as I know how frustrating it is not to have a definitive answer sooner rather than later.

 

[mark4785]

The larger water changes are a great start and it`s good to see that you`re prepared to put the time in to do that, there`s many who can`t be bothered to help their fish if it involves a bit more time and I`m glad you`re not one of them
The whole point behind regular water changes is that IF there are any impurities in the water, by consistently doing changes with fresh, dechlorinated water you`re diluting and eventually removing those impurities. The treatments you add are taken in through the gills and around the scales so the fish are taking in what they need to medicate them before you come along with clean water.........hope that makes sense?

As much as we all at some time or another have taken advice from a lfs, I`d take a lot of what they tell you with a pinch of salt......just have a read around the forum to see what utter bull some people get told. Experienced keepers will be a much better source of info.

I apologise if you`ve already said previously but do you have any carbon in your filter? Carbon will remove meds/treatments from the water as it filters so can actually lessen the effect that the meds have on your fish so would have to be removed completely whilst you`re adding meds.


I have 4 GBR`s too, along with a couple of neons and the water in my area is pretty hard but there`s no flicking or irritation. The only time I`ve ever had a problem with any of my fish flicking was when the water quality was terrible due to the wrong plants being in the tank, this in turn resulted in the plants becoming grotty and beginning to rot which was very unhealthy for the fish.
I have since removed those plants, completely re-scaped my tank, I perform more regular water changes and my fish and plants are healthier than they`ve ever been.

Hopefully we`ll get to the bottom of the problem you`re having, I just wish it could be sorted a bit quicker for you as I know how frustrating it is not to have a definitive answer sooner rather than later.

Thanks for your reply Elisew.

Well as can be seen from the water parameters I posted up, the main toxins are completely under control. By impurities, I understand you're refering to anything else added to the water. Possibly plant fertilizers, faecies, medicine etc? I do frequent gravel vacs to get up the faecies and I've now stopped putting plant fertilizer in just incase it is somehow irritating the skin of the fish. I do have 2 carbon remover sponges that I ordered in weeks before starting the Sterazin treatment but I haven't reinstalled it I guess I'm still clinging to the idea that the Sterazin is the answer to the problem.

Would you suggest putting the carbon remover back in the filter system and then attempt to do a water change each day? Earlier I did a 40% water change and I was quite disgruntled to see the GBR flicking itself to death all over the substrate.

I've known Sterazin to be extremely effective against flukes so either I'm dealing with something that is not flukes, there are too many impurities in the water or the water itself is too hard or contains too much carbonates. If the water itself is the enemy then I guess I'd be stupid to be doing these water changes!

Another thing that I thought just may be causing the flicking and quick succession of yawning (although very unlikely) is the fact that I always submerge blood worms in tap water and then feed the worm (I don't pour the tap water into tank, just the worm)directly to the Ram and others without removing much of the tap water. Maybe this tap water should not be making contact with the general mouth area? Maybe this is harmless but I'd appreciate someones opinion on this.

edit: Can I ask what you mean by 'wrong plants'? All the plants you see in my tank are very suitable for the water and it's temperature. I agree the cryptocoryne could look better but its being attacked by a string algae; under all of the brown algae is quite a healthy plant!

 

[fluffycabbage]

i was just reading your original post - even though you have removed a possible 'bad plant' is there any possibility it could have left residue in the substrate?
have you done an oxygen test?
have you finished the medication yet?
have you changed your substrate recently?