First time aquarium, please help determining NTD. (with photos)

[RickshawSM7]

Hello everyone,

This is my first time post on an aquarium forum, and i think i need some help determining weather or not some of my Neons have NTD.

I understand this destructive parasite has been the cause for much panic of fish owners and has been discussed endlessly, please accept my apologies for this repetitive topic. I appreciate that the paranoia around the disease has the ability to cloud our judgements, and panic can potentially lead to premature euthanasia as a precaution so as not to infect the whole tank. So just trying to stay as informed as possible as a responsible fish owner before i make a rash decision.

My setup info is a follows:
First time aquarium, only a small one @ 38Lt (or 10Gal) as i have limited living space. Had the tank for 3-4 months now.
Currently stocked with:
1 Balloon Molly, (male)
1 Dumbo Ear Guppy, (male)
1 Yoyo Loach (recently added to help combat snail outbreak)
and a small group of 6 Neon Tetras.

It has medium density (i think) live plants, (Java fern, Giant Sword, Poly Hygro and some small bunches of Dwarf spike grass. All growing spectacularly and must be pruned regularly.
Hardware is basic, all Aqua One products: 101F - 350L/hr filter, 55w variable heater set @25C, and 23LED ArcGlow light operating at about 8 to 10hrs on.
Substrate is a roughly 3mm coarse gravel stones to a depth of about 1.3 inches, and i use root tabs in it for the plants.

Water conditions:
PH: 6.8-7.0
0.0 - Ammonia
0.0 - Nitrite
0.0 - Nitrate (i am told this is strange by some, but not by others, as my live plants "gobble up" the nitrates. maybe im doing the test wrong?)

Only other significant aquarium event is i have had a recent boom in snail population, possible dues to a few bouts of overfeeding when switching to a new food. I am managing this with a lettuce trap and the aforementioned Yoyo Loach.

So, in the first couple photos you can see a small group, some with rather bloated bellies, next to the other rather sleek and streamlined guys.
1.

2.

And, in the last photo of the solo tetra, you can see along the bottom of the belly and a small spot near the gill, white shiny/bulgy patches is what setting of alarm bells for me based on all the descriptions of NTD i have read. Key symptoms are: Bloating, and white shiny cysts on the belly and sometimes face.
3.

All up 3 of the 6 tetras are displaying these symptoms, and has been around for perhaps roughly a month to 6 weeks.

However, regarding the fish behaviour themselves, they dont appear to be acting too strangely. They eat usually, but sometimes not so much. Schooling together normally, moving casually around the tank at times, and sometimes hanging put.
The only strange behavioural things was once a particularly bad looking tetra would always go off and hide in the corner alone for a couple weeks, perhaps due to some bullying that occurred, but this seems to have resolved.

Also, i just performed a 1 week API Melafix treatment on the whole tank last week (and then a 30% water change), as the guppy was showing signs of fin rot and figured why not treat the whole tank? if the Neons are suffering from a bacterial infection, maybe this will help? (also, i do not own a quarantine tank) but it appears to not have helped. The guppy fin rot does look to be on the mend however.

Sorry for the thesis, just really wanted to get a clear idea and give as much info to help anyone that may have advice for me. Naturally, I have concerns for waiting too long if it is NTD, as it may spread to others if one dies as the rest feast on an infected carcass .

Do you believe i should euthanize sooner rather than later, or wait it out a bit more?

Thanks again all for your time

 

[Naughts]

The neons in your first two pictures look healthy. Females have rounded bellies and a crooked blue line, males are more streamlined with a straighter blue line.
The last neon looks to have a pink tinge but that is probably in the photo not on the fish so I would not say it is a sign of a disease. Post more photos of that one if you are still worried.

 

[Naughts]

Bloating and cysts on the belly and face are not usual symptoms of NTD, there is a virus in neons (false neon tetra disease?) that some of us have had like this. My experience is that it doesn't respond to treatment but the fish can live for months. Action should be taken if the mouth deformities prevent the fish from eating.
NTD symptoms are pale colours, emaciated body, General malaise and sometimes a crooked spine.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I'm afraid I can't help much with the potential NTD disease, but you could set up a temporary quarantine tank using a basic plastic storage tote like this;

Adding a heater and a cheap sponge filter, seeded with media and substrate from your main tank. Then you could isolate the fish that are showing symptoms away from the main tank while deciding whether to try treatment or to euthanise. I'm not sure how to place the heater safely without potentially melting the plastic, maybe a heater guard, but I know @NCaquatics uses totes like these sometimes, so I'm sure she can tell you. These are great for setting up temporary quarantine tanks or in an emergency, when you don't have space for a permanent quarantine tank.

On a separate note though, please, please return the yoyo loach. Yes they're good at eating snails, but not only is a ten gallon far too small for yoyos (they get quite large, and being in too small a tank can stunt their growth, shortening their lifespan), but they're a very intelligent and social species that need to be in groups of six or more. They form bonds and a social hierarchy, and keeping one in isolation solely as snail control is cruel. I know some people suggest getting a loach to control snails, so I don't blame you at all for following bad advice, I'd just urge you to return him and use manual methods of removal for snails, rather than getting a fish and keeping it in the wrong set up.

Have a read about yoyo loach care, and you'll see why I'm asking you to please return him so he can be with other yoyos. More info about this species from a reliable source: https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/botia-almorhae/

Extract from that source;
"Botia spp. are gregarious, form complex social hierarchies and should be maintained in groups of at least 5 or 6 specimens, preferably 10 or more.

When kept singly they can become withdrawn or aggressive towards similarly-shaped fishes, and if only a pair or trio are purchased the dominant individual may stress the other(s) to the extent that they stop feeding.

B. almorhae group members tend to form less tightly-knit aggregations than some congeners but should still be kept in numbers since they require regular contact with conspecifics, a fact exemplied by a number of behavioural rituals which have been recorded consistently in aquaria (see ‘Notes’). "

Have a look at this video. These are clown loaches rather than yoyos, but they have the same need for a social group and social structure. Yoyos need the same thing. The larger the group, the better, with 5-6 being the minimum, which means a large tank.


With regards to the snails, If you reduce the over feeding, regularly gravel vac the substrate, and bait snails using veg to remove and euthanise them, the population will naturally be controlled. Snails won't do any harm to your tank, they can actually be beneficial. The population exploding is a sure sign of either overfeeding, or not enough mainenance, so they can be a useful natural alarm that you need to change something.

 

[FishGuest5123]

I have one NTD with a faded spot of color. Just keep an eye on them. If any begin to isolate, stop eating, or swim erratically then I would remove that fish. In NTD, the color fades in spots, not the entire color at once. That would be due more to stress.

 

[Retired Viking]

I have lost neon tetras to several different causes. Yours look alright but I would follow @Deanasue advice. Like @Deanasue I have a large shoal of neon tetras (27) but not as large as hers (over 50). They can become stressed from bright lights too. They come from shaded South American jungle steams so low lights and floating plants help. I think their color looks better in low lights.

 

[RickshawSM7]

Thanks for the information everyone.

It appears that many possible issues can befall the Neons from researching, more so than i anticipated from what is a commonly know to be a beginner fish. And yeah, it can get really confusing goolging symptoms as a beginner. cheers @Naughts, ill watch for the false virus now and I will look at that option for a temporary quarantine tank before euthanizing @AdoraBelle Dearheart.

 

[RickshawSM7]

I'm afraid I can't help much with the potential NTD disease, but you could set up a temporary quarantine tank using a basic plastic storage tote like this;

View attachment 115425

Adding a heater and a cheap sponge filter, seeded with media and substrate from your main tank. Then you could isolate the fish that are showing symptoms away from the main tank while deciding whether to try treatment or to euthanise. I'm not sure how to place the heater safely without potentially melting the plastic, maybe a heater guard, but I know @NCaquatics uses totes like these sometimes, so I'm sure she can tell you. These are great for setting up temporary quarantine tanks or in an emergency, when you don't have space for a permanent quarantine tank.

On a separate note though, please, please return the yoyo loach. Yes they're good at eating snails, but not only is a ten gallon far too small for yoyos (they get quite large, and being in too small a tank can stunt their growth, shortening their lifespan), but they're a very intelligent and social species that need to be in groups of six or more. They form bonds and a social hierarchy, and keeping one in isolation solely as snail control is cruel. I know some people suggest getting a loach to control snails, so I don't blame you at all for following bad advice, I'd just urge you to return him and use manual methods of removal for snails, rather than getting a fish and keeping it in the wrong set up.

Have a read about yoyo loach care, and you'll see why I'm asking you to please return him so he can be with other yoyos. More info about this species from a reliable source: https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/botia-almorhae/

Extract from that source;
"Botia spp. are gregarious, form complex social hierarchies and should be maintained in groups of at least 5 or 6 specimens, preferably 10 or more.

When kept singly they can become withdrawn or aggressive towards similarly-shaped fishes, and if only a pair or trio are purchased the dominant individual may stress the other(s) to the extent that they stop feeding.

B. almorhae group members tend to form less tightly-knit aggregations than some congeners but should still be kept in numbers since they require regular contact with conspecifics, a fact exemplied by a number of behavioural rituals which have been recorded consistently in aquaria (see ‘Notes’). "

Have a look at this video. These are clown loaches rather than yoyos, but they have the same need for a social group and social structure. Yoyos need the same thing. The larger the group, the better, with 5-6 being the minimum, which means a large tank.


With regards to the snails, If you reduce the over feeding, regularly gravel vac the substrate, and bait snails using veg to remove and euthanise them, the population will naturally be controlled. Snails won't do any harm to your tank, they can actually be beneficial. The population exploding is a sure sign of either overfeeding, or not enough mainenance, so they can be a useful natural alarm that you need to change something.

And thanks so mush for the information on the Loach.

This makes me really sad to know ive been somewhat swindled . tho tbh, not surprised. im coming to learn that the largest local aquarium near me, while awesome for stock and options, very much is mostly interested in making the sale rather than equipping you with information. I specifically asked: "are these schooling fish, do they need to be kept together to be happy?" and the guys response was super calm and confident in saying that: "ahh, it doesnt really matter, but as a general rule, the more the merrier", as he scoops a single fish out. And so i believed him, he seemed so confident. Rookie mistake.

Since watching the Loach moves around the tank, the oddly precise and intentional placement and timing of its movements, i was beginning to suspect that this was not your ordinary fish and possibly quite intelligent/playful intrinsically. i have quickly developed a strong fondness for their temperament .

But i want them to be happy, this comes first. So im with you @AdoraBelle Dearheart, ill look at returning :'(

 

[RickshawSM7]

One day, ill have space and money and ill buy a big tank and have a whole school of them!

They are my new favourite fish.
also Sterbai Corys have always caught my attention.

 

[Retired Viking]

I think we all have made the mistake of following what the LFS employees tell us about fish, I know I have. It is always best to do your own research before buying

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

And thanks so mush for the information on the Loach.

This makes me really sad to know ive been somewhat swindled . tho tbh, not surprised. im coming to learn that the largest local aquarium near me, while awesome for stock and options, very much is mostly interested in making the sale rather than equipping you with information. I specifically asked: "are these schooling fish, do they need to be kept together to be happy?" and the guys response was super calm and confident in saying that: "ahh, it doesnt really matter, but as a general rule, the more the merrier", as he scoops a single fish out. And so i believed him, he seemed so confident. Rookie mistake.

Since watching the Loach moves around the tank, the oddly precise and intentional placement and timing of its movements, i was beginning to suspect that this was not your ordinary fish and possibly quite intelligent/playful intrinsically. i have quickly developed a strong fondness for their temperament .

But i want them to be happy, this comes first. So im with you @AdoraBelle Dearheart, ill look at returning :'(

I'm so sorry, this is why it annoys me so much when stores give bad info like that Clearly he knew better, but not only did he not care about the fishes welfare, but new owners get attached to the fish too, then it's distressing to give them up But the store guy didn't care, he sold an extra fish, and what happened to it afterwards wasn't his concern. I don't think @AilyNC would mind my telling you that she went through a similar thing, a LFS owner who didn't care and gave terrible advice, which killed some of her fish, and he insisted two plecos she was buying were a small species that would be fine in her tank. Not only would that supposed species not have been fine in her tank long term, but he sold her a species that gets huge. She had to find an aquarium that was willing to take them, and by then, she was super attached to them

She did the right thing and found a fantastic place where they could live out their lives in tanks large enough for them, but there is no reason either of you should have had to go through that because of someone else's greed.

The good news is that there are some smaller species of botia. None small enough for your current tank I'm afraid, but if at some point down the line you want to upgrade to a 20-30 gallon, you could keep a group of dwarf chain loach Also beautiful little botia, with the same active and playful behaviours, but don't get as large as yoyos.

I understand when space is tight, but once you've caught the fish bug, it's amazing what you discover you can do to accommodate a larger tank or an extra tank. I swore I'd be sticking with the one 15 gallon and a 57 gallon, but I'm somehow up to four tanks now... One is only temporary! I swear...

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Oh! And if you want a nice bottom dweller for the ten gallon, and your water conditions (pH, GH etc) are right for them, then dwarf cories could be possible. Have a look at corydoras habrosus, corydoras hastatus, and corydoras pygmaeus. Also need to be kept in groups, but they're teeny, adorable, and could work in a ten gallon if your water is soft enough.

Sadly, if your water is soft, then the molly and guppy won't be suitable Since those fish are hard water fish. Neons are soft to middling water. If you look up you water authorities website and look for a water quality report in your area, the pH, GH and KH can usually be discovered that way. @essjay is our chemistry expert, and can interpret results to figure out your water hardness, if you share the water quality report.

 

[AilyNC]

Yeah so still miss my Plecos but I knew they'd be miserable and die horribly if I kept them. It's very tough but I've found this forum & seriouslyfish.com to be great resources. I think it's worth remembering that the LFS isn't a veterinarian clinic, it's a business. In my LFS he said he looks at a fish and sees "€3" but I look at it and see a pet. This really stuck with me. I understand his motivation is sales, yes he likes fish, but he also needs to pay his business rents, bills, mortgage, food, etc. It's his livelihood and so it's natural that will impact his motivations. But here and seriouslyfish are unbiased and evidence based approaches and advice.

It's worth double checking and doing homework before a purchase. I know I will from now on & if a pretty fish catches my eye I'll pull up seriouslyfish and make sure it's suited to my tank dimensions, pH and hardness.

 

[RickshawSM7]

Oh! And if you want a nice bottom dweller for the ten gallon, and your water conditions (pH, GH etc) are right for them, then dwarf cories could be possible. Have a look at corydoras habrosus, corydoras hastatus, and corydoras pygmaeus. Also need to be kept in groups, but they're teeny, adorable, and could work in a ten gallon if your water is soft enough.

Sadly, if your water is soft, then the molly and guppy won't be suitable Since those fish are hard water fish. Neons are soft to middling water. If you look up you water authorities website and look for a water quality report in your area, the pH, GH and KH can usually be discovered that way. @essjay is our chemistry expert, and can interpret results to figure out your water hardness, if you share the water quality report.

Thank you so much for your empathy and keen interest in my situation, with all this lovely, wonderful information coming at me

This started as a question about neons, while i was beginning to feel like maybe i dont know what im doing, and maybe i shouldn't be doing it if im going to make miserable lives for our fishy friends. But the support ive found here is lifting my inspiration!
I will always want to do the right thing by them, as I dont want to be a selfish kind of fish owner that will anything around in stressful situations, simply because i like looking at them.

I really should have started with a forum like this before my first purchase! Im so glad to have somewhere to come to for this kind of unbiased information now.

 

[RickshawSM7]

Yeah so still miss my Plecos but I knew they'd be miserable and die horribly if I kept them. It's very tough but I've found this forum & seriouslyfish.com to be great resources. I think it's worth remembering that the LFS isn't a veterinarian clinic, it's a business. In my LFS he said he looks at a fish and sees "€3" but I look at it and see a pet. This really stuck with me. I understand his motivation is sales, yes he likes fish, but he also needs to pay his business rents, bills, mortgage, food, etc. It's his livelihood and so it's natural that will impact his motivations. But here and seriouslyfish are unbiased and evidence based approaches and advice.

It's worth double checking and doing homework before a purchase. I know I will from now on & if a pretty fish catches my eye I'll pull up seriouslyfish and make sure it's suited to my tank dimensions, pH and hardness.

And i am sorry to hear or your similar experience also @AilyNC, this is sad when these seemingly greed driven events occur, however you express remarkable understanding and sympathy for the livelihood of those that bring us our fish, especially in the face of such disappointment. Attempting to appreciate the realities of others that we might not always see, you have my respect and applause for this