First 'serious' Planting. Advice Really Welcome :)

[Schmill]

Hi all. Ok, so in my first tank I bought 3 types of plants to grow, 2 of which turned out to be 'marsh' plants that rotted away, (well one recovered and is growing on kitchen windowsill!), and the last, Cabomba, really flourished in the tank and is in fact the only plant in that tank now, albeit everywhere!
Even the Cabomba though seems to only be 'bushy' at the top half or so, with the bottom half of the 'bushy' bit seeming to die off

I've just ordered some plants and fish for my new tank, and I would really appreciate some advice on both teh planting of them, and also on the then weekly fertilisation of them.
Ideally I don't want to go with CO2 injection, unless it's really needed.
Lastly I am using a gravel substrate, but I do have a bag of aquatic compost in the garage, so was wondering if it would be worth my time trying to 'pile up' my gravel at one end of the tank, and getting some of this into the base of the tank before putting the gravel on top again and repeating at the other end?

Tank
300L / 79 US Gallons
4' x 1.5' x 2' (h x w x d)

Lighting
2 x 39W T5HO

Filter
Aqua One Aquis 1200
Quoted at 1200 LPH 'empty', probably closer to 700LPH in practice (ie. with media and 1.8m head)

Substrate
Gravel
Possibility of putting some aquatic compost under it, if that would be beneficial? Fish & Plants arriving on Friday though, not sure how much putting in the compost will affect the water?

Plants Ordered
2 'bunches' Twisted Valli
2 'bunches' Amazon Sword
2 'bunches' Java Fern
2 'bunches' Ambulia
1 'collection' of Pellia (Monosolenium Tenerum)
1 'pot' of Glossostigma
Also have some cabomba from other tank.

* * * * *

The only thing I am particularly aware of is that the Pellia will probably need to be treated like Riccia or Java Moss and be palced within a plastic mesh, or tied to something?
I believe the others are ok for rooting in the substrate?

At the moment I have some JBL Clay Balls that I used in teh substrate of my 60L tank, and also a JBL liquid fert that I add to the water. The only issue I have with the liquid fert is that I think I will get through bucket loads on the 300L tank. Is there a good alternative, (perhaps a pond based one that may be more concentrated?), or should I use powders? If powders how do I know how much to mix? (I thought I asked this bit a few days ago, but I can't find the thread anywhere!).

So there we go, sorry about the lots of questions, but I really am new to this and would like my plants to not die on me
I've read quite a few threads, and the pinned topics for some great background knowledge, but now I'm just after some specific stuff.

Thanks!

 

[aaronnorth]

Your tank will probably not need CO2, it is borderline, but try it without, but if you see CO2 defficiencies then you will need to add it.

You will need more flow in the tank (minimum 10x turnover/ 3000l/ph), add another filter and/ or powerheads.

Soak the compost and dry it in the sun first, then add a layer capped with gravel or sand.

Pellia is sttached by cotton or fishing line to a rock or piece of wood. The hava fern is also attached in the same way, or you can just bury the roots and leave the rhizome sitting on toop of the substrate,

see here for info on powders: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=104737 You dont have to use that dosing method.

 

[Schmill]

Your tank will probably not need CO2, it is borderline, but try it without, but if you see CO2 defficiencies then you will need to add it.

You will need more flow in the tank (minimum 10x turnover/ 3000l/ph), add another filter and/ or powerheads.

Soak the compost and dry it in the sun first, then add a layer capped with gravel or sand.

Pellia is sttached by cotton or fishing line to a rock or piece of wood. The java fern is also attached in the same way, or you can just bury the roots and leave the rhizome sitting on top of the substrate,

see here for info on powders: [URL="http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=104737"]http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=104737[/URL] You dont have to use that dosing method.

Cheers Aaron,

What are the signs of CO2 defficinency, just so I know what to look out for?

Wow - Thats a LOT of flow, even with another matched filter I'll be nowhere near that and that will already cost me £80 or so
I'm presuming a powerhead would be cheaper, any recommendations? I'd have thought that much flow would blast the fish and / or plants around the tank like crazy, no?

As for the compost, looks like I might have to skip that then Fish & plants are due to me this Friday, and I don't expect any sunshine, (certainly any for drying out compost) until at least June! - lol
Out of interest what is this 'wash-n-dry' in aid of? I'm also presuming from the fact that you've said to dry it it would need to go into a 'waterless' tank, and then have the tank filled?

Thanks for the info on the planting methods for those two, and also on the powders. I'll have to have a readup on those! I have no idea about dosing methods so will likely have to follow that one unless another is suggested.

Thanks again

 

[aaronnorth]

Usually slow/ small growth, although you can expect slow growth due to not injecting CO2!! Blaack brush algae is also a sign of low/ fluctuating CO2.

It seem like a lot of flow, but once the plants are on there and hardscape it can be quite slow, i have 11x on my 60l tank, and the black neons handle it perfectly well. Saintly has 32x on his tank before (not sure if he still is lol). Koralia powerheads are good, rather than produce a jet stream like most and blast it in one direction, they spread the flow out over a larger are so it is distributed more evenly.
http/www.warehouse-aquatics.co.uk/hydor-...0lph-1298-p.asp
There is the chepaer/ copy versions which are cheaper: http/cgi.ebay.co.uk/Aquarium-3000L-H-Wav...1742.m153.l1262
Compost contains ammonia, so soaking it and drying it will help to get rid off it, if you have a conservatory then put it in there as they get red hot! It should dry out pretty quickly. You may be able to add it and do 50% water changes every day but i am not sure about this with it being compost (not sure if it contains any other impurities that may not be removed this way)
You can make a DIY tropica plant nutrition+ out of dry powders which will give you an all in one liquid fertiliser (rather than having 2 bottles - macro & micro) like the estimative index. Also that is only reccomended when injecting CO2, so perhaps the PMDD + PO4 or PPs will be a better method, there are quite a few!

 

[Schmill]

Cheers Aaron, I think I'll have to get a powerhead then, I've looked at both, but it would seem it's worthwhile spending the bit extra for the Koralia, would you agree?

It's going to be a MEGA job to remove the gravel etc. from a 4' tank in an evening, so do you think it will be worthwhile in the long run? If so I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and do it, but it will mean dumping the 300L of water, and then trying to scoop out the gravel.

The rest of it is fairly English to me until I get to here:

You can make a DIY tropica plant nutrition+ out of dry powders which will give you an all in one liquid fertiliser (rather than having 2 bottles - macro & micro) like the estimative index. Also that is only reccomended when injecting CO2, so perhaps the PMDD + PO4 or PPs will be a better method, there are quite a few!

So are you saying that although I could dose ferts, it's not recommended to do so unless I inject CO2 as well?
There is no 'basic' ferts mix I can make / use without the Co2?

Also I don't understand those abbreviations but I'm off to look them up

Am I right in thinking that with a 4' / 300L tank if I used Co2 injection I'd have to go pressurised, and not DIY?

Sorry for all the questions, but your answers are really helping

 

[aaronnorth]

Cheers Aaron, I think I'll have to get a powerhead then, I've looked at both, but it would seem it's worthwhile spending the bit extra for the Koralia, would you agree?

The Koralia are highly reccomended, and oversea's copy versions are not always great, they may last for ages, but they are unpredictable.

It's going to be a MEGA job to remove the gravel etc. from a 4' tank in an evening, so do you think it will be worthwhile in the long run? If so I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and do it, but it will mean dumping the 300L of water, and then trying to scoop out the gravel.

Having nutrient rich substrate means you can goo easier on dosing in the water column. If you miss a dose then the plants still hae a backup source of nutrients, and some substrate have a high CEC (cation echange capacity) which means it draws in positive elements to make them available to the plant roots.

So IMO yes it is worth it

So are you saying that although I could dose ferts, it's not recommended to do so unless I inject CO2 as well?

No, i am saying dont use the 'full on' estimative index dosing regime with the link i given above. I only gave that link to show you the mixtures you can make by cheap powders you can use because of the cost to dose on your tank size which you were worried about. For example:

Potassium Nitrate - 40g to 500ml of water and adding 10ml per 100L of water would give you a value of 5ppm.
Potassium Phosphate - 15g to 500ml of water and adding 5ml per 100L of water would give you a value of 1ppm.
Trace mix - 15g to 250ml of water will give you about the same concentration as off the shelf products. It is also a good idea, if you can, to add 0.5ml Normal hydrochloric acid as this helps to prevent the chelator from breaking down.

This means you can add 120ml of potassium nitrate (20ppm) once every three days. If you start to see nitrogen defficiencies (yellow leaves) then you can add 30ml every 2 days to cure the problem. Obviously 120ml is a lot to add so rather than add 40g to 500ml, add 80g to 500ml (which means you can add 60ml of KNO3 solution which is a better idea)
So as you can see it is customizable to your tank.

There is no 'basic' ferts mix I can make / use without the Co2?

Plenty, the main ferts considered the best are tropica plant nutrition+ and seachem flourish.

Also I don't understand those abbreviations but I'm off to look them up

here are some DIY dosing regimes: [URL="http/www.theplantedtank.co.uk/dosing-methods.htm"]http/www.theplantedtank.co.uk/dosing-methods.htm[/URL]

Am I right in thinking that with a 4' / 300L tank if I used Co2 injection I'd have to go pressurised, and not DIY?

pressurized, the amount of pop bottles you would need would be ridiculous

 

[waterdrop]

Good luck Schmill! I'm following along. Wish I had a big beautiful tank to learn on, but we've just got my son's little 106L/28G and so far I seem to be a plant-killing machine!

Anyway, will be interested on any reports of how your new plants do and it would be interesting if you mentioned your stuff like pH/KH in addition to all the plant-specific actions. I know in my case I sometimes find myself wondering what some of those readings are when reading about a planted tank.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Schmill]

Many thanks Aaron for the extra info, definitly time for me to sit and have a good read, very much appreciated.

I can not afford to go with Co2 injection at the moment, so would dosing with some thing like the EasyLife Easy Carbo that I've seen mentioned be useful?


Cheers waterdrop, I'm keeping my fingers crossed with a lot of this, as I am a real beginner on anything more than just "pop the plants in, slosh in some liquid fert, and see how they do", but am wanting to learn

I'll either be updating here, or my tank log as I go, wherever I do it I'll provide a link in my sig anyway

 

[aaronnorth]

I can not afford to go with Co2 injection at the moment, so would dosing with some thing like the EasyLife Easy Carbo that I've seen mentioned be useful?

It will be helpful, but it will be quite costly on your tank.

 

[Truck]

easy carbo IMO is a good alternative to CO2 injection, george farmer was using it on his tank but hes switched to easy carbo and the results are good.

 

[SuperColey1]

Jack

EasyCarbo and Excel are poor alternatives on large tanks purely due to the fact that for 2-3 months worth of supply you would spend the amount that a full pressurised setup would've been.

Therefore it would've been better to wait the 2-3 months before setting the tank up at which time the money you'd saved could be spent on the pressurised.

George Farmer uses it as do many but on much smaller tanks. On standard to large he uses pressurised.

AC

 

[Truck]

oh, i didnt know its not as effective on larger tanks , im going pressurized soon, its expensive to start with but as aaronnorth has, the FE route could save you a bob or too.

 

[SuperColey1]

oh, i didnt know its not as effective on larger tanks , im going pressurized soon, its expensive to start with but as aaronnorth has, the FE route could save you a bob or too.

It is as effective on any size tank but not 'cost effective'.

For example On my tank the recommended dosage is 3ml daily. However with the volume of planting I have (remember these dosages are based on the 'average' tank just as all ferts instructions will be) I would probably dose 6-7ml daily. That would mean a 500ml bottle would last 70 days. This is on a 125Ltr. Times that tank volume by 3 to get a 375Ltr tank and you are now looking at 1 bottle every 3 weeks!!! 3 months would be 4 bottles. Therefore WHY? A pressurised setup can be bought for less than £100 these days so WHY?

People always say 'can't afford this and can't afford that'. The people who try and 'get by' end up spending loads and loads more than the people who either wait and save up or who bite the bullit. This is not a cheap hobby. There are 'cheaper' methods but in comparison to a standard 'fish tank' with plastic plants that last forever we are looking at 2-3x the cost at the very least.

A hi-tec setup will cost about 10x the amount if the person buys everything at the start and more if they try and 'get by' because they are then continually having to upgrade things they tried to skimp on.

Maybe a blunt summary but it's better to know before you spend the money.

AC

 

[Schmill]

So in summary;

- Go with the powder ferts and 'make your own' liquid fert to add to the tank.
- Don't bother with Easy Carbo, save the money and then invest in a presurised Co2 system in a month or 2 if the tank seems like it needs it, (symptoms such as small/slow growth, or black brush algae)

That pretty much it in a nutshell?

Don't worry about being blunt; I'd prefer advice to be blunt and clear, than clouded with vagueness

 

[SuperColey1]

Nope my summary would be:

If you haven't started and you don't want to keep upgrading then wait, save and leave the tank empty until you have what you need. those 2-3 months of waiting will last forever BUT the better result will happen sooner and you will not spend so much over the next year or so as you would have meaning in a year or so time you will have that money available should you wish to go full pelt at full aquascaping having learnt what to do or spend on some fish etc.

In the 2-3 months waiting time you can research a huge amount. the more research you do the more mistakes of others you will find and be able to avoid them hopefully in yours. The more you may change what you were going to buy based on what you read etc. At the end your shopping list may have changed many times but hopefully for the better.

My 125Ltr has cost me in the region of £2000 in 26 months!!! This is because I started and scrimped and scraped and then upgraded to the next level then the next etc.

If I set a tank up now with what I have and use now (meaning tank, filtration, fish EVERYTHING) it would cost me £600. This should give you a good idea of why it is best to plan first, then research, then adjust the plan, then research etc and then once the plan is finalised you can go and buy it.

Think of it like an architect. He doesn't order all the stones and wood and mortar and then start planning the building. He plans the building, then adjusts the materials to stay within the budget, then keeps adjusting the plan until the plan works and is within the budget. Then he talks to the builders and gets the materials ordered.

Blunt is what you asked for

AC