Fin Rot?

[Ch4rlie]

Not sure if this qualifies as a emergency or not?
Apologies if in wrong section.
 
One of my Threadfin Rainbowfish has a tattered looking tail.
At first I thought this was down to fin nipping from other tank mates, but now beginning to wonder if this is fin rot or not?
 
 
There are 5 Females and 12 Males currently in the tank. Am planning in near future to get a better balance of this by re-homing 7 Males and get 5 more Females to make a ratio of 1M : 2F
 

 
 
 
How do I know if it is fin rot?  
What are the symptoms apart from a damaged tail? any other signs to look out for?
If it is Fin Rot how best to treat this?
Do bear in mind I do have shrimps and snails in the tank as well, so please do not give any advice on meds that would harm shrimps and snails.
 
Have been wondering if rooibos and Indian Almond Leaves would be beneficial for this?
 
She is swimming about normally, obviously not as graceful with this tail, and appetite seems healthy as eats well at mealtime.
 
Advice would be great.
 
Tank info, 90 litre (24 US Gals), external filter EX1200, did fishless cycle several months ago and filter has mature media from well established tank.
 
Water parameters -
 
pH -              7.8
Ammonia -   0 ppm
Nitrite -         0 ppm
Nitrates -    30 ppm
 
Temp 25C / 77F
 
Normal water changes once a week, 30 to 35% on average.

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

Hey mate. Normally fin rot will show itself on the pecks too. If the pectoral fins look good then it is more likely to be fin damage, rather than rot. For all external fish damage/disease I am a big fan of salt dips. I would try to avoid chemical/medical cures if possible.
 
Don't use table salt, it must be aquarium salt. Use a small container up with 2 table spoons of salt per gallon, and have a second container with tank water ready.
 
Drop your fish in the salty water, and watch it. Maximum time is 30 min, but if it starts to look stressed(laying on its side) take it out. Then put it in the tank water container for a few minutes and back to the tank. Do it once in the morning and once in the evening for 2-3 days.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Thanks for that, DTD.
 
Is aquarium salt ok to use with shrimps in tank?
 
EDIT - my mistake, just seen you advise to have another container for this, basically a salt dip set up you are saying?

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

That's right. You can use an old ice cream box(if you like ice cream as much as I do? 

) or any tub. the fish will only be in it for minutes, so no need for an air pump or anything. It is literally a bath. 

 

[Ch4rlie]

Just had a look at the female with ragged tail, her left pec fin not looking so hot, a bit ragged/smaller than right side one. 

 
Darn! 
 
All other fish fins and tails looks ok.
 
My eyes sore now as they guys are quick and fins tiny!! 

 
I don't have another hospital tank for this although can quickly nip to P@H and get a small 17 litre tank, will that do the trick? or will using 2 large bowl or plastic cake boxes be ok since is only for 30 mins max then few mins in other tank water for few mins then back to main tank as advised by DTD?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

DevotedtoDiscus- you are not correct in what you say about not using table salt. I will offer you one of the best pieces out their on this topic and invite you to show why any of what it says in this respect is incorrect. I will ay I have been using plain old salt- both the table form we put in shakers and the rock form for years in tanks, including to treat discus. with no problems at all. You can find this article on many sites.
 
http/badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article77.html
 
I used to chat online with RTR in my early days in the hobby. I developed a rule from this. If RTR said or wrote) to do or not to do a thing, I learned to trust it as an immutable fish truth. I learned the hard way a few times that not listening to him was always the wrong thing to do. He is almost legendary here in the states. You can Google him as RTR or Robert T. Ricketts. he is an acknowleded expert on puffer among other things.
 
And just to bring this to a level you know every well, a number of years ago I had 4 discus. They came down with something that hit them hard and fast. The final stage was sloughing of the slime coat. I lost two in the main tank and then moved the other two to a 10 gal. H tank. On the adivce of discus experts I knew I added to that 10 gal tank two full cups of table salt. That is correct-two full 8 ounce measuring cups of table salt. I was told to go to three if needed. However, soon after I was advised to treat them with Binox. So aftter almost three days in that amount of salt i did a big water change and switched to the med which did cure the fish. However, without all that table salt in the water, they never would have lasted to the point where the medication went in.

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

Yes mate, a couple of bowls/tubs are fine. Don't go buying another tank. Also only treat the fish that is looking sick. Don't treat the whole tank, as that is a bit like getting the flu and dragging all you family and friends to the Doctor 

 
What happens is the parasites/bacteria that cause the problems are killed by the salt. Also helps if the salty water is a couple of degrees C warmer than the tank water. Don't worry, the fish can take it. I have done it many times over the years, and left my fish in the dip until they go belly up! Then put them back in fresh water and they revive in an instant. Also done it the other way around with saltwater fish. 
 
IMO it is a better general cure than trying to work out what medication is needed(buy which time it is too late!)

DevotedtoDiscus- you are not correct in what you say about not using table salt. I will offer you one of the best pieces out their on this topic and invite you to show why any of what it says in this respect is incorrect. I will ay I have been using plain old salt- both the table form we put in shakers and the rock form for years in tanks, including to treat discus. with no problems at all. You can find this article on many sites.
 
http/badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article77.html
 
I used to chat online with RTR in my early days in the hobby. I developed a rule from this. If RTR said or wrote) to do or not to do a thing, I learned to trust it as an immutable fish truth. I learned the hard way a few times that not listening to him was always the wrong thing to do. He is almost legendary here in the states. You can Google him as RTR or Robert T. Ricketts. he is an acknowleded expert on puffer among other things.
 
And just to bring this to a level you know every well, a number of years ago I had 4 discus. They came down with something that hit them hard and fast. The final stage was sloughing of the slime coat. I lost two in the main tank and then moved the other two to a 10 gal. H tank. On the adivce of discus experts I knew I added to that 10 gal tank two full cups of table salt. That is correct-two full 8 ounce measuring cups of table salt. I was told to go to three if needed. However, soon after I was advised to treat them with Binox. So aftter almost three days in that amount of salt i did a big water change and switched to the med which did cure the fish. However, without all that table salt in the water, they never would have lasted to the point where the medication went in.

Got it, but some table salt contains high levels of iodine, especially in the UK, where Charlie is. Maybe it is different in the US. 

 

[Ch4rlie]

Thats good to know, thanks DTD. Now have a couple of plastic containers (incidently one of them is an Ice Cream box! 

) will do the salt dip soon. 
 
TTA - Good to know, however I thought some table salt is unsuitable, dependant on ingredients in your particular table salt, mine has for example anti-caking agent : Sodium Hexacyanoferrate II
 
And I thought this would be unsuitable to use if needed in an emergency or as salt dips?
Am happy to be corrected on this if am wrong.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Ok, about to set up 2 containers for salt dip. So just to clarify...
 
1 container with treated tap water (a degree or two warmer than tank is better, right?) with de-chlor and is about 1 litre.
(my container is kinda small at 1 litre but a small threadfin...)
 
So you say to put 2 tablespoon aquarium salt per gallon.
 
1 US Gal is about 3.8 litres, divide by 4 so would amount to near as makes no difference 1 litre, so thats a half tablespoon of aquarium salt to add to 1 litre of water for salt dip. Is that about right?
 
Note - directions on my aquarium salt container says 1 tablespoon for 5 US Gals.......
(its API aquarium salt by the way if that helps)
 
Watch fish for stress, if starts layingon side to take out immediately or for 30 mins max
 
Then put fish in tank water container for a minute or two then return to main tank.
 
This is my first time doing this so want to be sure got everything right......
 
Thanks

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

You have got it.

 
 
It will will probably look a little unhappy and its gill covers will start flapping and it might do some crazy swimming, but don't fret. Only take it out if it keels over. 
 
If you can, dip it twice a day for the next couple of days. Don't expect instant results, but you should see the fins grow back to normal after 2-3 weeks. 

 

[Ch4rlie]

I failed first time 

 
Could not net her, too fast and she goes into the corners where I can't net her.
 
tried for 5 mins, too stressful for her and for me too.
 
Any tips on how you net fish?

 

[Ch4rlie]

Attempt number 2 failed as well, thats the trouble with my tank, too much space to escape to and too many plants and clutter to b able to scoop her up in net!
 
She now hides firmly in one bottom corner of the tank right next to the xternal filter intake pipe. impossible to get to properly with a net.
 
Think netting her in that tank is out of equation.
 
Threadfins are skittish fish at best of times and my trying to net just one of them is nigh on impossible.
 
Think back to drawing board. Am thinking along lines of rooibos and indian almond leaves might help, may take longer but is that viable at all or is there any other meds that may work without harming shrimps and snails?
 

nothing makes me feel worse than that feeling to have failed in such a simple thing......

 

[DevotedToDiscus]

If she will eat, lull her into a false sense of security with some food and ambush her! 
 
Or place you net in the water and chase her into the net with your hand, rather than trying to chase her with the net. 

 

[Ninjouzata]

Another thing you can do is lower the water level so not as much space. I know it is a terrible pain It took me forever to get one rummy out of our 55g.
I hope you get something sorted soon and she heals up quickly!

 

[Ch4rlie]

Right, have sorted a plan of action.
 
My GF nano tank is practically cycled, just needs one or maybe two more test to confirm its cycled. Its a 22 litre (5.8 US Gals)Nano tank.
 
So am thinking for temporary keep this Threadfin in this tank for up to 3 days while going through salt dips to treat her fin rot. 
I know its a small tank but she is only small herself and only for 3 days then back to main tank after 3 days of treatment.
 
Will reckon be so much easier to net her in this little tank as not so much to hide behind and nothing to obstruct my net while trying to net her.
 
A couple of questions I'd like to ask, before going any further.
 
1 - am wondering if I can just add aquarium salt to the nano tank and a few days of this salt in tank is enough to treat the fin rot?
 
2 - if this is a feasible idea to use the Nano tank as a sort of treatment tank, how do i get rid of the salt in the nano once finished treatment?
Do a few large water changes?
 
3 - or just stick with original plan of salt dips in small containers but return her to nano tank rather than main tank.
 
4 - Last one, is fin rot contagious to other fish?