Feeding Cichlids and other fish meat

[Colin_T]

These big companies research shows that the fish don't like cow but enjoy wheat flour, wheat germ meal, wheat gluten and (carrots (with parsley)). carrots and parsley is what my mum used to feed us kids in the old days. Somethings never change.

fish meal (43%), wheat flour, wheat germ meal (10%), brewers yeast, Ca-caseinate, spirulina algae meal, wheat gluten, fish oil (containing 49% omega fatty acids), krill, gammarus, Haematococcus algae (0.5%), mannan oligosaccharides (0.4%), green-lipped mussel meal, stinging nettle meal, herbs, lucerne meal (alfalfa), garlic (0.1%), parsley, sea algae meal, paprika, spinach meal, carrots

The things I have bolded in the above paragraph are things that do not naturally occur in fresh or marine environments and fish have never evolved to digest them. Some people even have trouble digesting some of those items and humans are land animals that evolved around those items, so fish should not be eating them.

Wheat and grains have no place in a fish's diet. Finches and parrots eat grains, so do rats and mice, but fish don't.

The following items are the only bolded items I might feed to fish if I didn't have other alternatives. Paprika has been shown to enhance red, yellow and orange colour in fish, however a varied diet and good living conditions help improve colour too. Spinach and carrot can be fed to vegetarian fishes but fish don't digest terrestrial plant matter as well as aquatic plant matter. So whilst they might get some nutrition from it, they would get more from aquatic plants and algae.

A lot of things that get added to fish foods are more of a sales gimmick whereby fish keepers want to do the best for their fish, so they buy things with vitamins and herbs in. Whilst these things might be good for humans, they are not necessarily good for fish.

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Years ago when I had just set up my first marine tank, I was wondering what to feed the fish. My dad said "What would they eat in the wild? When we go fishing, we use fish and prawn to catch fish because that is what they eat." Dad was right.

Fish, prawn, insects and insect larvae, other types of aquatic organisms are all eaten by fish. Fish don't have a local store to buy bread, rice, milk, flour and fruit n veg from. They eat each other and other small things that live in water.

 

[Colin_T]

So a salt water shrimp tastes the same as a fresh water shrimp?

when they are cooked and in a prawn cocktail they do

 

[Colin_T]

What about the salt in the marine ones?

any salt in fish or shrimp used as food is quickly diluted by the aquarium water.

 

[jaylach]

Actually, in the wild, MANY fish will eat grains as wind puts grains in the water which for some species is a treat that they will gobble up.

 

[Colin_T]

The only fish I know that eats seeds is the Pacu and they eat Brazil nuts, which are seeds from the Brazil nut tree.

I have never seen a fish eat and swallow bird seed or any type of grass seed. I used to keep birds and they would sometimes leave seed in the fish tanks. The fish would pick at the seed, mouth it and spit it out.

I have done tests where I throw a handful of wild grass seeds into a creek and watched fish pick at them but they don't swallow them, they just spit them back out.

Grass seeds are also only available for a short time each year and not produced for most of the year. If a fish does eat them, it won't be a major part of its diet.

When fish food companies have wheat as their second ingredient, that indicates there is a lot in there. The first ingredients are the most abundant in the fish food, and the last ingredients are the least abundant in the food. If there are grains and terrestrial things occupying the first part of the ingredients list, it is made for humans and not fish.

 

[jaylach]

The only fish I know that eats seeds is the Pacu and they eat Brazil nuts, which are seeds from the Brazil nut tree.

I have never seen a fish eat and swallow bird seed or any type of grass seed. I used to keep birds and they would sometimes leave seed in the fish tanks. The fish would pick at the seed, mouth it and spit it out.

I have done tests where I throw a handful of wild grass seeds into a creek and watched fish pick at them but they don't swallow them, they just spit them back out.

Grass seeds are also only available for a short time each year and not produced for most of the year. If a fish does eat them, it won't be a major part of its diet.

When fish food companies have wheat as their second ingredient, that indicates there is a lot in there. The first ingredients are the most abundant in the fish food, and the last ingredients are the least abundant in the food. If there are grains and terrestrial things occupying the first part of the ingredients list, it is made for humans and not fish.

Might involve what you consider a seed. Years ago when I had cichlid tanks my convicts and blue/yellow acara would fight over crushed raw walnuts. Nuts are seeds. They would also fight over crushed corn kernels which are also seeds. Throw in some broken up peas in a cichlid tank and you might be surprised as they will fight over them.

Of course not ALL cichlids will do as described as above. My expressed experience is with blue and yellow acara, convicts, green terrors and Jack Dempsey.

My point is that many, if not most or all, cichlids want a varied diet. Most want both protein and green stuff. My cichlids also loved raw oats... also a seed. Forget barley as it would be gone almost before it hit the water.

If you decide to try any of the above go VERY light on nuts as they tend to have a high fat content. OK for an occasional treat but not for a steady diet.

 

[GaryE]

I don't feed many prepared foods, but I think we have to be reasonable and look at approximating what fish eat in the wild - doing our best.
Seeds are a major part of what wild fish in the Amazonian region eat, if they surface feed. Pollen is too. That's not from watching my own fish, but from reading about stomach content analysis.
What seeds, what pollen - there without building a room of tropical plants (hmmm, an idea there...) we can only use approximates. Pollen for fish is nothing to sneeze at.

If I were ever to get into Discus again, I would use a lot of home reared white worms. In season, daphnia and mosquito larvae would be good. I already culture them for my killies. Frozen bloodworms would do if I weren't allergic to them. I've seen wild caught Discus breed with them as a staple. For dried food, I'd use an insect based food like the various black soldier fly concoctions. They are easily digested, and the filler is minimal. They are the only dried food my killies will lay eggs on a diet of (though not as many eggs as on live food). I regularly pick up small jars of this and that to experiment, but that type is the only one I go back for, based on that observation.

You can release the blender onto white fleshed fish, shrimp and non oily seafood. You can supplement with baby food peas and carrots, for an easy puree, add avian vitamins and bind it all with undigestible but useful gelatin. It keeps the finer mix from spreading out and polluting the water, and if you miss feeding cows to your fish, it's got you covered. A little undigestible content is balanced out by the delivery of good food. The percentage the fish can't profit from is miniscule compared to beef.

I'd check out some live food forums, as there are probably easily cultured things for fish the size of Discus. I was less experienced when I kept Discus, and didn't see these possibilities. My fish are all tiny these days, but if I made a change, I would put myself into the loop.

it isn't just Pacus that eat fruit, but feeding fruit is a recipe for water quality problems. A lot of fish will go for fruit because they want what is feeding on the fruit, the way mollies will graze algae walls in Cenotes looking for the crustaceans and micro-organisms in the algae. Leaving rotting fruit in a tank poses problems, especially as I seem to remember @itiwhetu doesn't believe in water changing.

There's a middle ground between hard to digest mammals and prepared fish foods. If you have space and a bit of time, all you need is motivation and willingness to try something new.

 

[anewbie]

Ingredients: Black soldier fly larvae, salmon, fish protein concentrate, green peas, potato, wheat, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, DL-methionine, lecithin, choline chloride, L-lysine, vitamin E supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium L-ascorbyl-2-monophosphate, marigold extract, zinc oxide, manganous oxide, D-

Potato, green peas, wheat all the stuff Discus find in the wild. Even Salmon, I do wonder how many Discus have ever eaten a Salmon.

The point isn't what they find in the wild; it is what is healthy for them..... After all how many people eat tuna in the wild.... Anyway at this point I think you are just being argumentative and if you prefer to feed your fishes hamburger go ahead; not my problem....

 

[Colin_T]

Leaving rotting fruit in a tank poses problems, especially as I seem to remember @itiwhetu doesn't believe in water changing.

Pretty sure Itiwhetu does small regular water changes and not big (75%) ones like I did.

 

[GaryE]

the discus fish Symphysodon - SciELO - M.MOAM.INFO

Dec 22, 2008 - of the lake hosting more than a thousand discus. Only 16 of the 41 ..... ing free-swimming B. cichlae wit...

moam.info

And there lies the answer, if @itiwhetu wants to read through. The stomach content analysis of Discus in the wild shows them to eat a high volume of vegetable matter and detritus, and a study of their anatomy shows their guts to be evolved to process plant matter first and foremost. They get a minority of their food from crustaceans and bugs that fall into the streams.

That surprised me, as I thought they were more carnivorous. So my suggestions were wrong - I would now make a paste food with a high spinach, seaweed, and other pureed veggies, and a bit of blendered shrimp for the crustacean side of things.

 

[anewbie]

BTW Repashy igaloo explorer in theory has mostly the ingrediants fishes actually find naturally - though it isn't target directly at discus and might therefore not exactly match their diet.

 

[itiwhetu]

This is what my Discus tank looks like close up. Lots of plants, lots of Algae, lots of snails, lots of mulm on the base, little tetras breeding. All of these things I have been told is wrong.
To be clear I do 25% water changes weekly and I never vacuum the tank, I also don't use fertilizer to grow plants.

 

[connorlindeman]

This is what my Discus tank looks like close up. Lots of plants, lots of Algae, lots of snails, lots of mulm on the base, little tetras breeding. All of these things I have been told is wrong.
To be clear I do 25% water changes weekly and I never vacuum the tank, I also don't use fertilizer to grow plants.
View attachment 163251

Looks like ahealthy tank

 

[GaryE]

That's about how I run tanks too. There is nothing sadder (to me) than the common bare tank for Discus. Or the common bare tank for anything.

 

[itiwhetu]

Here are my babies lining up for their feed of Venison, the Black Phantoms bet them to it.