Evidence that reptiles have sentience.
- Thread starter gwand
- Start date
Talking snakes are out of the range of the study in question. There's no data on them...
I'm thinking that the characters from one of my favourite mythologies, Star Trek, would have had difficulties with Planet Earth and sentient life. The episodes were written with a degree of respect for physics, chemistry and tech of the time, but were a wee bit weak on biology.
OP
OP
Here is yet another example of non human sentience. I may be preaching to the choir but we need to get the message out.
phys.org
Elephants gesture with an intention to communicate their desires, study finds
Humans have long mastered the art of expressing their goals and needs through both language and gestures. A similar behavior is also observed in non-human primates, who use complex gestures to convey what they want, but does the use of deliberate gestures extend beyond primates to other members...
Elphants have been known for a long time to be very intelligent (behind dolphins and chimps); and have long memory esp for those who have been kind or abuse them.Here is yet another example of non human sentience. I may be preaching to the choir but we need to get the message out.
Elephants gesture with an intention to communicate their desires, study finds
Humans have long mastered the art of expressing their goals and needs through both language and gestures. A similar behavior is also observed in non-human primates, who use complex gestures to convey what they want, but does the use of deliberate gestures extend beyond primates to other members...
Things like sentience and intelligence are hard to define.
My fish are aware of me as an unthreatening beast. If I spend time in the fishroom, they are all out and watching me, but if a friend visits, the prettiest ones always hide and the tanks look empty. They're aware of me, as a learned thing, and aware of each other. Is that a form of intelligence?
I think so.
Many are able to see colours I can't with my human eyes. They build nests, choose high oxygen areas to lead their fry to, and engage in complex activities. Some have been studied, and can count. Is that intelligence?
You can say it's all instinct, but in my 20s I really wanted to be a Dad, set out to find a stable livelihood and a good place to live and greatly enjoyed raising my kids and teaching the kids of others. That, I believe, was instinct kicking in. Sometimes it's good to turn the image around onto ourselves. Don't look at intelligence as creatures acting like us, but as us acting like the creatures around us. It's an enlightening perspective.
If you look at history, we humans generally create gods in our own image. The world is full of sculptures, tales, holy book passages, chosen species and such that all show the same failing of imagination - even if the statues and images can have elephant features or angel wings - they are basically human. We've rarely gotten past that self centred point of view. I think most of what we try to do flows from inherited instincts, and we share an awful lot of our intelligent behaviour with other species. It all comes from the same process, and an intelligent response to our environment probably evolved very early, because it works.
Tech is cool, but we've been on a Smart Planet for the whole journey.
My fish are aware of me as an unthreatening beast. If I spend time in the fishroom, they are all out and watching me, but if a friend visits, the prettiest ones always hide and the tanks look empty. They're aware of me, as a learned thing, and aware of each other. Is that a form of intelligence?
I think so.
Many are able to see colours I can't with my human eyes. They build nests, choose high oxygen areas to lead their fry to, and engage in complex activities. Some have been studied, and can count. Is that intelligence?
You can say it's all instinct, but in my 20s I really wanted to be a Dad, set out to find a stable livelihood and a good place to live and greatly enjoyed raising my kids and teaching the kids of others. That, I believe, was instinct kicking in. Sometimes it's good to turn the image around onto ourselves. Don't look at intelligence as creatures acting like us, but as us acting like the creatures around us. It's an enlightening perspective.
If you look at history, we humans generally create gods in our own image. The world is full of sculptures, tales, holy book passages, chosen species and such that all show the same failing of imagination - even if the statues and images can have elephant features or angel wings - they are basically human. We've rarely gotten past that self centred point of view. I think most of what we try to do flows from inherited instincts, and we share an awful lot of our intelligent behaviour with other species. It all comes from the same process, and an intelligent response to our environment probably evolved very early, because it works.
Tech is cool, but we've been on a Smart Planet for the whole journey.
OP
OP
I would define sentience as the ability to experience feelings and sensations. This includes the capacity to experience pleasure or pain and display an affect as the outward expression of inner feeling. Sentience doesn't automatically mean an organism possesses self-awareness but it is certainly a precursor to knowing one exists as an independent entity. Reasoning, problem solving, complex thought processes are the basis for intelligence. While these can coexist with sentience, they are distinct concepts.
When I realized in my 20s that most, if not all animals possess sentience and some degree of intelligence I became a vegetarian and than a vegan. When I was made aware that even plant life has varying degrees of intelligence and even sentience, I realized my ethical diet was futile. The only food items that don’t involve the taking of a life are fruit and nuts. Dick Gregory made that ethical choice. I could not. So like many of my fish I am back to being an omnivore. Are we the stewards of our planet? If so we need to be mindful of our charge.
When I realized in my 20s that most, if not all animals possess sentience and some degree of intelligence I became a vegetarian and than a vegan. When I was made aware that even plant life has varying degrees of intelligence and even sentience, I realized my ethical diet was futile. The only food items that don’t involve the taking of a life are fruit and nuts. Dick Gregory made that ethical choice. I could not. So like many of my fish I am back to being an omnivore. Are we the stewards of our planet? If so we need to be mindful of our charge.
Hmm, serious questions. I figure as a human, I'm just another animal. I'm evolved as a hunter gatherer as a result of probably being part of a scavenger species for ages. I'm smart, I live in cities and I have technology, most of which I use rather than create, but diet wise, I am what I am.
I keep fish. There, I don't just use, but have been known to catch. I guess that's the same urge those here who hunt or sport fish work with. In my case, I have tried to study the habitats and do as good as job as I can to emulate them, for whatever strange need I have to watch, study and try to understand fish.
I believe aquarists have a duty to keep fish kindly, on par with keepers of dogs, cats or other mammals. If you are going to do it, do it right. Provide space, good water, appropriate foods, appropriate companions, and just a good level of care. It's a bit twisted - if I follow my logic to its conclusion, I shouldn't keep fish in glass boxes at all, or I should turn my interest to habitat protection. I know it, just as I know I could get by on fruits and nuts. But I can't seem to do it -maybe it's that same mechanism that would allow me to kill and eat animals I respect and often admire, or the one that would let me participate in a war if that were needed.
I've never been interested in sport hunting, and while I was a skilled rod and reel fisherman when I was younger, I began to see things from the fish point of view too clearly. I'm not going to put a barbed hook into the mouth of a sentient creature with a highly complex nervous system. But, I ate fish and chips last night.
Mabel, the dog sleeping on my feet right now, is the kindest, gentlest dog I've yet come to know. But when she spots some prey animals, she transforms. She has befriended some deer, and they interact from a distance when they meet, but she is no longer kind and gentle when she sees a raccoon or a groundhog. We aren't that different. The nicest fish I ever kept here ate its babies sometimes, although it stopped that as it aged and learned.
I keep fish. There, I don't just use, but have been known to catch. I guess that's the same urge those here who hunt or sport fish work with. In my case, I have tried to study the habitats and do as good as job as I can to emulate them, for whatever strange need I have to watch, study and try to understand fish.
I believe aquarists have a duty to keep fish kindly, on par with keepers of dogs, cats or other mammals. If you are going to do it, do it right. Provide space, good water, appropriate foods, appropriate companions, and just a good level of care. It's a bit twisted - if I follow my logic to its conclusion, I shouldn't keep fish in glass boxes at all, or I should turn my interest to habitat protection. I know it, just as I know I could get by on fruits and nuts. But I can't seem to do it -maybe it's that same mechanism that would allow me to kill and eat animals I respect and often admire, or the one that would let me participate in a war if that were needed.
I've never been interested in sport hunting, and while I was a skilled rod and reel fisherman when I was younger, I began to see things from the fish point of view too clearly. I'm not going to put a barbed hook into the mouth of a sentient creature with a highly complex nervous system. But, I ate fish and chips last night.
Mabel, the dog sleeping on my feet right now, is the kindest, gentlest dog I've yet come to know. But when she spots some prey animals, she transforms. She has befriended some deer, and they interact from a distance when they meet, but she is no longer kind and gentle when she sees a raccoon or a groundhog. We aren't that different. The nicest fish I ever kept here ate its babies sometimes, although it stopped that as it aged and learned.
.. without any pants onI hope I’m a snapping turtle and I find you swimming .
OP
OP
No fair. You guys are double teaming me! lol... without any pants on
And you’re loving every minute of it you rascal !
.. without any pants on
chuck berry song my ding a ling live - Search Videos
I've only recently become interested in reptiles, and most, if not all, breeders keep them without any thought for their psychological or ethical well-being, only their physical well-being, because reptiles don't feel emotions.
For me, this is an impossible concept to accept. Furthermore, in the US, bearded dragons are often handled like dogs, teaching them exercises, taking them for walks and swimming, and seeking a relationship with them.
The bearded dragons' responses make it clear that they are intelligent animals capable of establishing a relationship with humans.
One of the problems we face as a species is that of equating animals that live individually with animals that live in more or less organized communities, and of failing to understand that certain behaviors are more closely linked to the social sphere than to the actual intellectual sphere.
For me, this is an impossible concept to accept. Furthermore, in the US, bearded dragons are often handled like dogs, teaching them exercises, taking them for walks and swimming, and seeking a relationship with them.
The bearded dragons' responses make it clear that they are intelligent animals capable of establishing a relationship with humans.
One of the problems we face as a species is that of equating animals that live individually with animals that live in more or less organized communities, and of failing to understand that certain behaviors are more closely linked to the social sphere than to the actual intellectual sphere.
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