Emergency Advice Needed!

[jaywellington]

First time poster.
 
Re: Fin Rot that is not responding to good water values, AQ Salt treatments, anti-fungal and multiple antibiotic medications.
 
Hello!
 
My Betta was born Jan. 11. 2016 and is at an emergency stage in his life. We need help as soon as possible as we need to treat this! Whatever it is!  We received him in April. I was told Bettas are good for first time fish owners and he only need a small tank and maybe a filter. I soon discovered all these people around me who owned fish didn’t have a clue. But now I’m knee deep and don’t want to give up on him.  In May we discovered his fins starting to change. That’s when the crash course in fish/Betta care began. And though we’ve been treating him, he continues to progress. Which have led some to suggest that it might be Mycobacterium Tuberculosis. Whatever it is he has, it just keeps progressing. We have bought so many anti-biotics and fungal cures. Yet, it’s important to know what it is, so we use the appropriate medications and treatment plan to treat it. Please help us save this little guy’s life.
He looks as if we could lose him at any time. He has what appears to be advanced FIN ROT. It has been progressing over the past 3 months and will not stop no matter what we try. We did an IN-FISH nitrogen cycle but changed the water every 2-3 days (5.5gal tank) to keep the numbers from getting too high. He is now through the nitrogen cycle. PH 7.4, ammonia =0 nitrites=0 nitrates=0 ..but FIN ROT is progressing. We are looking for someone who vast experience and knowledge on this topic as we are running out of time.
 
Summary-
April- We received a Blue white butterfly rosetail halfmoon Betta.
Today we have him in a hospital tank. 3 gals. with an almond leaf and silk plants. (Photos Avail)
 
MAY – Nitrogen cycle over, I noticed a change in his dorsal fins.  I begin research regarding his symptoms. Unfortunately there are as many contradictions on what to do, as there are websites. It is so confusing.
 
JUNE – Research indicates probable Fin Rot. Also noticed a blood spot on his fins - I removed a suspected plant. Noticed also is a white patch on the front of his dorsal fins with some new slight white streaking on his lower fins.
We decide to administer Maracyn 2 for 5 days w/Fungus Clear. He looked awful. Fin Rot progressed.
Then, we tried Aquarium Salt for 10 days....he slowly worsened.
Then, we tried Maracyn 2 again for 5 days w/Fungus Clear....he has NOT gotten ANY better. He doesn’t swim around much but still eats. Fin Rot is progressing. (Photos Avail)
 
We give him DOUBLE the DOSE of Stress Coat Plus, an Almond Leaf, a couple marimo moss balls and w/a DAILY conditioned 100% water change. He eats Hikari Bio-Gold and New Life Spectrum that we hydrate for him before feeding. (Bloodworms once a week)
His white trim on the top and back of his fins are melting and shredding.
Heater keeps temp at 80F. (unless lowered for antibiotic treatments)  Lights are low.
 
July – We tried Furan-2. Two doses with a 3 days break in between. His fins are noticeably more raggedy. ...ugh (Photos Avail)
 
August – His disease is progressing. I am giving him a 100% daily WC (unless indicated by treatment) he gets a fresh almond leaf every 3 days(I boil it for 2 minutes in conditioned water as suggested). August 7-11: I dosed him with Tetracycline with a single dose of fungus clear.
Kept temps a bit cooler at 74/75 while dosing with the antibiotic. No progression in the last four days noticed. So, I’m giving him a break. Temps back at 78-80 and I am doing 100% water changes daily with a Methylene Blue baths while he is out of his hospital tank. He is given one tsp aq. Salt at every change. His tank is 3 gal.
No other fish around and he is not a tail biter. Hospital tank, which he has been in now for 3 months ia an injury free zone.
 
I have read a lot about Kanaplex helping. Also many say to use an antibiotic (or two antibiotics) along with a fungal medication. Maybe that's my next step?? I just started coating his bloodworms with Kanaplex, garlic guard and focus, but it doesn't seem to have much of an appetite for those so bought the Kanamycin flakes, metronidazole, oxytetracycline and a couple more.  But unsure of how much to administer. Or really what treatment to try. We're both getting weary of his illness and not sure how much longer he can hold out.
 
I was originally given erroneous information about Betta when I bought him and he may be suffering now because of it. But I have since rectified my errors. Only he is very sick and won't get well again.
 
If I only knew how to proceed.
 
He is progressively worse and I am STILL unsure as to what he has and how to treat it. However, you would think that one of these treatments would have worked. He’s basically been in a hospital tank for the past 3 months as I do 100% daily water changes. I wonder if it is Fish TB?
Have I been medicating him improperly?
 
If anyone with experience in this has seen such a case like this before including all these issues, can you please advise me. I will attempt to upload a few photos of him past and present. He just keeps getting worse....
Thank you,
JW (& Belly)
 
*photos were sized down to fit upload
 

 

[betta fish]

Sorry but that does look like tail biting to me, notice how it is on the tail and lower dorsal the parts he finds easier to reach? I have had a fair few that have done this but only ever actually witnessed it once or twice, they don't look infected so I would stop with the antib's and keep his water clean and warm, make sure he has no caves or other hideaways to go into where he can shred as they hold his fins still for him, they can do it out of boredom or stress for some reason or another but it is often difficult to pinpoint and can become a habit that is very difficult to break.

 

[cooledwhip]

3 gallons is too small. I believe (among many others) that bettas should be kept in 10 gallons minimum. 
 
Try adding more almond leaves.
 
I personally am against medicines unless it's an OBVIOUS infection. Otherwise, just dropping medicine in the tank water without knowing 100% what the disease/infection is, is just pointless. Imagine if you had a cold, and you were given like 10 different antibiotics over the course of a month or two? It's pointless. The real cure is to drink lots of water and rest.
 
What type of filter do you have?

Try putting him in a 10 gallon, empty tank except for leaves, and try bringing the pH up. I haven't had bettas in 6 years but from what I remember they are a very hard water fish. try pH of 8 if you can. You can do that by adding some shells or rocks.  
 
Also quit the meds. Add some salt and that's it. Turn the lights off the tank too.
 
100% daily water changes is killing him. STOP. do 50% every week, at the MOST. By changing the water you are destroying beneficial bacteria.
 
Because he's sick you should do SMALL water changes multiple times throughout the week. For example, 25% change monday, 25% thursday, 25% saturday. Something like that. Change it slow, in small amounts, and  A LOT OF TIMES.
It is much better than changing out 100% of water.

 

[betta fish]

Just to clarify for cooledwhip bettas are a soft water fish in the wild but can adapt to harder water if need be although I do think it shortens their lifespan, so please do not increase your ph 

 

[jaywellington]

Fish Herder: Thank you for your interest. So far though, we've ruled out boredom and fin biting since we have not one time seem him bite his fins and he is in a location where he can be easily watched. We watched as the very top of his dorsal (which is now gone) melted back, got bloody and then fell off. I really should add more photos as we've seen his fins on top with spots of blood and then the next day they are gone. He cannot reach those to bite them.
 
Fish Crazy: Thanks for your input. However, it is his hospital tank that is 3 gals. His normal home is larger. There's a lot to take in from his story, but I did write we are giving him almond leaves.
 
I think it is something else....

 

[cooledwhip]

Just to clarify for cooledwhip bettas are a soft water fish in the wild but can adapt to harder water if need be although I do think it shortens their lifespan, so please do not increase your ph 

It is up to OP to increase pH, but do realize that bettas have been kept captive for AT LEAST over 300 years. I personally have kept bettas in pH of 8.4 before and they have flourished- no fin rot whatsoever.

 

[jaywellington]

Ph is at a constant 7.2. I don't think that is his problem. Thanks though FC.
 
_____________________________________________________________
 
To Anyone Else Who May Read This:
 
I know it is a lengthy history of treatment, but please read it all before commenting as we have tried many many treatments so far.
He is only 8 months old and his FIN ROT started when we got him. We have tried all the recommended treatments. he is not nipping at his fins, there are no other fish, his hospital tank is empty except for few necessities. He is not stressed and rather playful, but every once in awhile a fin starts bleeding and then breaks off, while others continue to recede. And all we've done for the past 2 months is treat him. (Please refer to history above) And NO treatment has helped.. Am I missing something or have I just not found the right antibiotic/treatment?
 
PLEASE If you have EXPERT experience in these types of resistant situations we need your help AND advice!
I tried to get someone to come to the house but they couldn't believe I would want a house call for a single Betta.

 
Please advise us before it is too late to help this little guy. I do have more photos to post if need be.
 
Thank you
- JW (& Belly)

 

[BettaBettas]

more photos, would be great. sorry I didn't see this post before im not on as often as I really should or could be

Your Betta will be fine don't panic because that only hurts, you, which we don't want here now do we!

I will look into this, but it (from my point of view) is definitely not fin rot, and if it is. its a mild fin rot case, fin rot has indications of dark colorations around the affected area, which this Betta does not have atm. keep studying him, as I will study this topic. brb researching.
For now I would add some AQS (Aquarium Salt) (1-1.5 TSP/GALLON DAILY 100% WC)

 

[Wildbetta]

Things like this are always frustrating and especially so to new owners.    Hopefully I will be able to help you in some way with your issue. 

First thing:  How is he acting?  Is he eating?  Does he keep his fins open or clamped to his body?  Is he active or just laying around the tank or floating at the surface?  Does he have any fuzzy spots or badly discolored(black,grey, or white) spots on his body anywhere?   Have any of the fins receded to the body at any point?(it does not appear so in the current pics you have posted is why I ask) 
 
From the info you have provided here are my recommendations and thoughts:
 
Stop all the current medications.  Medicating that much that often is extremely stressful for the fish and could cause more issues than it helps
I would leave him in the 3 gallon for now.  Keep up the salt at 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons and keep the IAL in the tank.  I do recommend just rinsing the IAL instead of boiling it so that you get more of the beneficial tannins in his water.  Keep his water at 78F-80F and don't worry about the pH.  Domestic bettas don't tend to care too much about pH as long as it is kept constant.  Also reduce your water changes a bit to 25%(max) every couple days.  I would check your parameters before the water changes and if there is no change, you can go longer -- to 25% once a week.  Make sure when you are adding back in the new water that you dose the salt for the amount of water being added back in and not the full tank volume.  
 
While I know you have previously stated that you do not believe it is fin biting, the pictures you have provided look exactly like progressive fin biting.  Fin biters are extremely crafty fish and most owners never see them actively bite their fins.  Bettas can actually reach every one of their fins no matter how difficult or impossible it looks. Fin biting is difficult to address since there are so many reasons it could be happening and it is different for each individual betta.  Some do it when stressed (by too big/small of a tank, tankmates, seeing stuff outside the tank, filter too strong, too much light,medications ect), some do it because of boredom, some do it because their fins are so heavy and large that they have trouble swimming(rosetails are very likely to fin bite for this reason), and then there are ones that appear to have no reason to do so. Fin biters do tend to have large sections disappear overnight and can have bloody edges from the damage. I am not saying this is for sure what the main problem is with your boy but it is something to not dismiss as impossible. 

At this point in time (from the pictures provided) -- he doesn't look to have fin rot.  The edges are pretty clean, have no pin holes, and are not "melting"(like plastic when lit on fire is the best way I can describe it).   Just keep him in clean, mildly salted, warm water to keep him from developing an infection in case he is biting. 


 

 

[cooledwhip]

I have already responded but you obviously did not read it...
 
STOP THE 100% WATER CHANGES. You are destroying the beneficial bacteria which removes the ammonia, and he most likely has AMMONIA POISONING, which destroys and eats fins. I have seen this personally with some goldfish I had when I first got into the hobby. They don't die because they are very hardy fish, just like bettas, they just slowly suffer.
 
The medicines make it worse, it's like alcohol on a cut.
 
My suggestion is to use dechlor (I'm assuming you already are, but just want to make sure)
 
And STOP MEDICINES. don't use salt or any medicines at all. Just stop.
 
Don't change water for 2 more days. On the third day, do a 25% change.
 
Wait 2 more days after that and do a 50% water change, and then after that, wait a week and do a 50%, and keep doing 50% weekly. 50% water is the MOST you should change on a betta.
 
I use to change my water 25% every 2 weeks on my bettas. They don't like water changes or currents or flow. Keep in mind they live in dark little still mud puddles in the wild. And yes, my bettas were in healthy condition. I had a pink white rosetail halfmoon, and a green emerald mustard yellow halfmoon, and a full royal blue crowntail, and a red rosetail split tail. Very beautiful fish, but my grandmother killed them one day while watching them while I was on vacation like 4 years ago. I really miss them and plan on getting some bettas soon.
 
The moral of this story is don't ever change 100% of your water. Stop the medicines, and do 50% a week at most. More leaves, less salt, and little to no flow.

 

[Wildbetta]

 They don't like water changes or currents or flow. Keep in mind they live in dark little still mud puddles in the wild. 

 
This is not 100% true.  A lot of bettas do not have any issue with some water flow or even mild currents although it is recommended to have a low flow with the larger finned domestics.  Some bettas actually really like to play in the flow from filters or bubbles from air stones.  

  And while very large water changes (like 100%) can stress some individuals -- most fish enjoy fresh water from a water change.
 
And wild bettas do not live in dark still mud puddles. That is bad myth that just will not die unfortunately. Wild betta habitats are very varied with deep pools, mountain streams, and black water ponds being some of them.  

 

[cooledwhip]

 

 They don't like water changes or currents or flow. Keep in mind they live in dark little still mud puddles in the wild. 

 
This is not 100% true.  A lot of bettas do not have any issue with some water flow or even mild currents although it is recommended to have a low flow with the larger finned domestics.  Some bettas actually really like to play in the flow from filters or bubbles from air stones.  

  And while very large water changes (like 100%) can stress some individuals -- most fish enjoy fresh water from a water change.
 
And wild bettas do not live in dark still mud puddles. That is bad myth that just will not die unfortunately. Wild betta habitats are very varied with deep pools, mountain streams, and black water ponds being some of them.  
 

Yes fish enjoy water changes, but only a fool would change 100% of the water...
 
There is a lot of confusion in the "betta" fishkeeping hobby. it almost has it's own culture, little teeny bopper kids that think bettas are these majestic and hard to care for fish. I mean for gods sake you buy them out of little plastic cups. 
And yes actually, they do live in mud puddles. They live in mud puddles in rice fields. There may be some that live in ponds and streams, but for the most part they live in mud puddles.
 
It has been PROVEN that multiple smaller water changes are MUCH better and healthier than a large 100% water change. And I believe OP said he did that every day... 

 

[Wildbetta]

 

 


 They don't like water changes or currents or flow. Keep in mind they live in dark little still mud puddles in the wild. 

 
This is not 100% true.  A lot of bettas do not have any issue with some water flow or even mild currents although it is recommended to have a low flow with the larger finned domestics.  Some bettas actually really like to play in the flow from filters or bubbles from air stones.  

  And while very large water changes (like 100%) can stress some individuals -- most fish enjoy fresh water from a water change.
 
And wild bettas do not live in dark still mud puddles. That is bad myth that just will not die unfortunately. Wild betta habitats are very varied with deep pools, mountain streams, and black water ponds being some of them.  
 

Yes fish enjoy water changes, but only a fool would change 100% of the water...
 
There is a lot of confusion in the "betta" fishkeeping hobby. it almost has it's own culture, little teeny bopper kids that think bettas are these majestic and hard to care for fish. I mean for gods sake you buy them out of little plastic cups. 
And yes actually, they do live in mud puddles. They live in mud puddles in rice fields. There may be some that live in ponds and streams, but for the most part they live in mud puddles.
 
It has been PROVEN that multiple smaller water changes are MUCH better and healthier than a large 100% water change. And I believe OP said he did that every day... 
 


 
Calling someone a fool is not nice.  There are lots of times 100% water changes are necessary.  I am not saying this particular case is one of them but the OP is at least trying to keep clean water for the fish to keep infection chances down.   
 
And I hate to say it, but wild bettas do not live in mud puddles.   LOL  Even the ones that live in rice paddies (which are very few out of the 100's of wild betta species) are not in "puddles" but are in 2+ foot deep water in huge areas of land.  Sorry I don't know where you are getting your info from in that area but it is flawed.  I have been working with over 12 species of wild betta for almost 10 years and routinely converse with breeders in Malaysia and Thailand who collect wilds.    

 

[jaywellington]

Please let me clarify a few things.  I receive a lot of conflicting information from everyone coming in here and I feel I should make a few things clear and ask some opinion questions as some are saying add salt, some are saying don’t add salt, do a 100% water change daily, do not do daily 100%, etc..it is a bit confusing.
 
First, let me reiterate, my Betta is currently in a 3 gallon hospital tank, NO FILTER. This is the reason for currently 100% water changes every 48 hours. Second, let me answer a couple of your questions.
 
Cooledwhip, as I said above, he is not in a filtered tank. He is in his hospital tank with no filter, so there is no beneficial bacteria and there should be no ammonia. In fact, I test the water parameters and all are pristine.  So not sure how he could have ammonia poisoning as its always 0. 
However, he was originally in his cycled tank several months ago while it was cycling and I believe ammonia/nitrite poisoning is the source of the original problem, along with overfeeding in the beginning, but he has been out of his original tank for 2 months now and in his hospital tank with 100% water changes being done every 48 hours and I only feed him by hand for months now exactly what he will within a few minutes.
 
Wildbetta, to answer your questions: “How is he acting? Is he eating?”
He acts fine for the most part. However, he is alone in his tank and tends to sit on the top leaf of a silk plant next to his heater. (Tank temp a constant 78-80) When I enter the room, he eats with a great appetite, swims, says hello, socially visits with me, looks happy, all the things I would expect him to do. Outside of his deteriorating physical appearance, I may not know there was even an issue. 
“Is he active or just laying around the tank or floating at the surface?”  He is active when I am present, but when I first walk in he is sitting on his top leaf by the heater.
“Does he have any fuzzy spots or badly discolored (black,grey, or white) spots on his body anywhere?” 
I have seen one fuzzy spot on the front of his dorsal fin. It’s been there for the past 3 months. (I assumed it a fungus and treated it accordingly but it’s still there.) He also is showing some signs of white streaking on his under-belly/anal fin area.  
As for “Gray” and you saying FINROT would be “"melting" (like plastic when lit on fire is the best way I can describe it).” Yesterday I noticed a new spot.  I am including it on this response.  In the red circled area on one of the pictures, it looks as you described above. Up close it’s a clear smoky gray color.  Does this help make any assessment? (Sorry about photo quality.) I’ve been trying to determine if this is a sign of fin rot or finally some new growth as I have not seen it yet and don’t know what new growth will look like outside of written descriptions.
”Have any of the fins receded to the body at any point? (it does not appear so in the current pics you have posted is why I ask)”.
He has lost the front two spines of his dorsal fin. Slowly the fin material decreased more and more each day and then at some point the spines snapped off. He looks to have the same issue with the third spine as well (which is appearing as the first now). It appears to keep thinning and getting straggly as the other two did before they broke off. 
I think it could be getting near the body in this front (dorsal) area as well as his tail area.  I will try and provide better pictures of its progression. I have circled one of the areas in green.
Zooming in for a close-up is probably best to see the most detail in my photos.
 
So here are my questions so I can procedure to my next step.
 
1 – What is the possible diagnosis and treatment?
2 – Should I leave him in (3 gal.) hospital tank with no filter and do daily or every-other-day water changes or return to low-filtered cycled tank (5.5 gals) and do weekly water changes at 25%?
Whatever is his best scenario.
2 – Add AQ Salt or do not add salt? Amount recommended?
3 – Medications or no medications? I have them all and have tried most of them. In powder form and medicated flakes. So many difference of opinions on how to treat him has had me busy for months. (Please see his history in the above post) Yet none of them have worked and he keeps on progressing.
 
I don’t want what is easy and I don’t want what is cheapest. I want what is the best for him anf the best environment needed to cure him. I need a diagnosis and recommended treatment plan as (whatever it is!) keeps progressing.
 
Thank you so much.
- JW (& Belly)
 
p.s. He has a lengthy history (Please see the first post) which I tried to detail in this forum. This will help us avoid discussing treatments that I have already tried.

Here are more pics for diagnostic purposes.

 

[cooledwhip]

 

 


 


 They don't like water changes or currents or flow. Keep in mind they live in dark little still mud puddles in the wild. 

 
This is not 100% true.  A lot of bettas do not have any issue with some water flow or even mild currents although it is recommended to have a low flow with the larger finned domestics.  Some bettas actually really like to play in the flow from filters or bubbles from air stones.  

  And while very large water changes (like 100%) can stress some individuals -- most fish enjoy fresh water from a water change.
 
And wild bettas do not live in dark still mud puddles. That is bad myth that just will not die unfortunately. Wild betta habitats are very varied with deep pools, mountain streams, and black water ponds being some of them.  
 

Yes fish enjoy water changes, but only a fool would change 100% of the water...
 
There is a lot of confusion in the "betta" fishkeeping hobby. it almost has it's own culture, little teeny bopper kids that think bettas are these majestic and hard to care for fish. I mean for gods sake you buy them out of little plastic cups. 
And yes actually, they do live in mud puddles. They live in mud puddles in rice fields. There may be some that live in ponds and streams, but for the most part they live in mud puddles.
 
It has been PROVEN that multiple smaller water changes are MUCH better and healthier than a large 100% water change. And I believe OP said he did that every day... 
 


 
Calling someone a fool is not nice.  There are lots of times 100% water changes are necessary.  I am not saying this particular case is one of them but the OP is at least trying to keep clean water for the fish to keep infection chances down.   
 
And I hate to say it, but wild bettas do not live in mud puddles.   LOL  Even the ones that live in rice paddies (which are very few out of the 100's of wild betta species) are not in "puddles" but are in 2+ foot deep water in huge areas of land.  Sorry I don't know where you are getting your info from in that area but it is flawed.  I have been working with over 12 species of wild betta for almost 10 years and routinely converse with breeders in Malaysia and Thailand who collect wilds.  

 


I did not call ANYONE a fool. 
 
The betta community is so flawed. I'm not going to bother responding to anything more in this thread.
 
The information is obvious. Ok, your fish WILL DIE because you aren't following anyone's advice here.
 
I BREED FISH, I know how to keep water conditions right and keep fish healthy. 100% water changes are not good at all, ever. Just because your tests read 0 doesn't mean that the water is clean and healthy water. I have said my advice almost four times, and you still have not listened to me. I'll say it again for a fifth time and that's it.
 
1. get  a filter, or an air stone, SOMETHING. ITS NOT THAT HARD
2. stop changing water
3. change 50 every week
4. stop changing water
5. stop adding meds
6. do you realize all the meds you are putting in your tank? these are CHEMICALS. i have never dosed chemicals or anything for my fish diseases. not even ich. i let ich treat itself. I had fish scales falling off of a boesemani. i just isolated him and did small water changes and now he's fine.